A marine and an IPSC guy walk into a match....

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TRaTSeRiF

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Looks like the Philippine Marine Corps are trying to emulate the AMU by developing cooperation with the action shooting community. I wish we had more of that happening in our parts. Maybe we will once we develop a few world-class shooters and a good base for them to grow out of. For now, action shooting is 90+% pistol game in Canada, but with the added popularity of 3gun, I'm betting that will change quickly. Already, clubs like EESA and Peterborough are starting to allow us to have a bit of rifle fun in IPSC and it would be nice to see more out there. Hopefully our armed forces will develop cooperation with the sport shooting community beyond the DCRA (clarification: in addition to the DCRA, this is by no means a suggestion to reduce their involvement with them - they also have some fun games and anybody who's ever owned an AR should throw a few bucks their way)

JB is one of the better Open Rifle shooters globally, plus he plays a lot of Mini Rifle for cross-training purposes, and putting money on him winning an MR match against ANY competition is a pretty safe bet. Scary to think what could have been had he got into action shooting at a younger age. He also trains with their snipers to improve his long distance game. I'm hoping to see similar performances from a bunch of Canadians in near future :)

 
No better way to train someone than make it fun. No better way to teach someone than if they want to learn.

Most soldiers I know rarely got to play with pistols, and never shotguns. It was always FNC1 or C7 (with a familiarization on other platforms, like the Sterling, but none of us were competent with anything other than the MBR.

Same with Police - I knew a couple RCMP officers who only shot for their requals, and were terrible at it. To start with, they hated the guns, but if they at least practiced, either in uniform or not, then maybe they'd be less stressed about the requals, and have less of a grudge on the pistol.

I'd love to see a club-level IPSC match with a squad of police, in for the fun and practice of it.
 
sulisa said:
No better way to train someone than make it fun. No better way to teach someone than if they want to learn.

Most soldiers I know rarely got to play with pistols, and never shotguns. It was always FNC1 or C7 (with a familiarization on other platforms, like the Sterling, but none of us were competent with anything other than the MBR.

Same with Police - I knew a couple RCMP officers who only shot for their requals, and were terrible at it. To start with, they hated the guns, but if they at least practiced, either in uniform or not, then maybe they'd be less stressed about the requals, and have less of a grudge on the pistol.

I'd love to see a club-level IPSC match with a squad of police, in for the fun and practice of it.
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Excellent elaboration! I shot a Black Gun match in QC where the military and law enforcement were encouraged to attend. Couldn't attend any last year due to my travels. Some police services even paid their members to come out to play with us. Everybody had a blast and it promotes proper marksmanship that their competitors can pass onto their coworkers.
 
sulisa said:
Same with Police - I knew a couple RCMP officers who only shot for their requals, and were terrible at it. To start with, they hated the guns, but if they at least practiced, either in uniform or not, then maybe they'd be less stressed about the requals, and have less of a grudge on the pistol.

I'd love to see a club-level IPSC match with a squad of police, in for the fun and practice of it.
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I've heard similar things from others and I'm not disputing it, but I just can't comprehend how any officer wouldn't want to practice regularly with a weapon they carry on the job. I wonder if a culture is encouraged where they're made to feel that shooting practice makes them look "too eager" or something? It should be clear that ideally they never have to use it, but if they do, better if they're comfortable with it.
 
Yep, certainly not all cops would be fans of guns, but it's definitely one of their tools of the trade. Like driving a police cruiser once a year, would make them terrifying drivers. I'm sure some come from anti-gun backgrounds, and it can be hard to overcome personal pre-dispositions. But it's a chosen field, and carrying a gun, carbine, taser, they're all tools in the toolkit.

If you gotta use it, might as well practice doing something fun :)
 
We have and continue to encourage LE to attend our club matches.
For a time we had a great guy who attended and dragged along some of his co-workers.
My observations from it;
-A LE who's a gun guy gets along just fine :)
-Some what interested / new LE appeared to be intimidated to display their abilities in front of civilian shooters (who kicked their butts).
-The detachments never paid their way so interest was difficult to drum up.
-Generally their gun handling is poor, some are excellent but some, well...
-Some civilian shooters took offence to them using full capacity magazines (I was in support of it- they should use what they carry as they carry it).
-Want to see some of them drool and others get nervous eyes- pull out an open gun and do a bill drill...

Currently we haven't had any attend for some time- they still rent the range for their own activities but they are quite private in their activities.
I wish they shot 40...they never clean up the brass :)
 
We have a handful of LEOs show up at our black rifle matches. They get schooled... most of them aren't great shots.

We also have several CF members participate.

Problem is the gamers game and race through as fast as they can. Us CF/LEOs are slower as we use cover and move in a tactical fashion.
 
What do you guys think about organized events arranged between the local sporting organizations and the local LEO/CF detachments/bases?

On a side-note, I'd allow standard capacity mags and even allow them to run them loaded to full capacity, for example in Level II and below matches. Selective fire rifles should be allowed but only to be used in SA mode.
 
I remember years ago when I was in the CF, at a little radar site in BC, the station staff challenged the local RCMP detachment and the wild life people to a shooting competition.
The teams used their duty gear and shot several courses of fire. During the competition The teams exchanged firearms and had a familiarization shoot with the firearms of each branch.
If i recall correctly, most of the RCMP and wildlife people shot well and those from the station well not so well.
The purpose of the of the competition was to build a re pore with the military, RCMP and wild life staff. This type of thing can be done but it takes a lot of time, convincing the upper echelons of the various groups that this can be done safely.
 
andrew771 said:
I remember years ago when I was in the CF, at a little radar site in BC, the station staff challenged the local RCMP detachment and the wild life people to a shooting competition.
The teams used their duty gear and shot several courses of fire. During the competition The teams exchanged firearms and had a familiarization shoot with the firearms of each branch.
If i recall correctly, most of the RCMP and wildlife people shot well and those from the station well not so well.
The purpose of the of the competition was to build a re pore with the military, RCMP and wild life staff. This type of thing can be done but it takes a lot of time, convincing the upper echelons of the various groups that this can be done safely.
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something similiar happens in NB every year....a Peace Officers workshop. Good for a little friendly competition.
 
One thing competition shooters need to realize is competition shooting has no resemblance to LEO shooting. Even ERT training which is combat oriented, is not like IPSC. Competition shooting is a whole different world, so it stands to reason that anyone who is not experienced in competition shooting will not do well at first.

The animosity from many of the haters on this forum does not create the warm feeling other shooters might receive as well. Did you ever see Indy Car drivers enter Nascar and clean house ? Same kind of thing.
 
MustangFrank said:
One thing competition shooters need to realize is competition shooting has no resemblance to LEO shooting. Even ERT training which is combat oriented, is not like IPSC. Competition shooting is a whole different world, so it stands to reason that anyone who is not experienced in competition shooting will not do well at first.

The animosity from many of the haters on this forum does not create the warm feeling other shooters might receive as well. Did you ever see Indy Car drivers enter Nascar and clean house ? Same kind of thing.
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This above.

12 pound DAO triggers along with manipulations that are slower but tried and true under stress are part of the equipment/training. You will lose against competitors with competition grade equipment. Your gear isn't designed for that and the manual of arms is designed for a different purpose.

Same goes for the carbine. Training is based off ERT which comes down from JTF2. Combat effective, but will get you last place in a competition.
 
Bittereinder said:
I've heard similar things from others and I'm not disputing it, but I just can't comprehend how any officer wouldn't want to practice regularly with a weapon they carry on the job. I wonder if a culture is encouraged where they're made to feel that shooting practice makes them look "too eager" or something? It should be clear that ideally they never have to use it, but if they do, better if they're comfortable with it.
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I to have mixed feelings on this.My son-in law who is a LEO just let his RPAL lapse and sold his (only)handgun to my wife. His reasoning is that he does not need his licence and he doesn't shoot it enough to justify paying for a range membership. Financial hardship?Not a chance and to add insult to injury he voted NDP because they support the unions.
 
Add another classification in IPSC? LEO Class? This way they shoot, compete, get better (maybe), and they can be scored among their peers. Some might actually realize they enjoy shooting, and could then choose to compete in other classes, maybe become "civilian" shooters, once they realize we are, (mostly), the good guys, should they choose to. It's not "tactical", it's trigger time, under stress, and it's a great way to become a better shooter, figure out what to do when you have a FTF, or FTE, or you didn't load up right... all things that will hurt you on the street, but only your ego gets bruised in a match.
 
MustangFrank said:
One thing competition shooters need to realize is competition shooting has no resemblance to LEO shooting. Even ERT training which is combat oriented, is not like IPSC. Competition shooting is a whole different world, so it stands to reason that anyone who is not experienced in competition shooting will not do well at first.

The animosity from many of the haters on this forum does not create the warm feeling other shooters might receive as well. Did you ever see Indy Car drivers enter Nascar and clean house ? Same kind of thing.
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It does not resemble leo annual requalifications, because the requals are slow and under absolutely no duress or stressors. It has nothing to do with DAO triggers, or triple retention holsters. I think the last time a requalified, I almost fell asleep and scored a perefect score with a da revolver. The requals have not changed much, except they use a semi auto hk currently. Requalifying once a year is the employers way of making sure you don't shoot your foot off. The heavy DAO triggers are for liability, as the majority of leo are under trained for firearms usage. It is a cop out ( excuse the pun), to say it is all gear related, or that performance Is because they train a different way necessarily...give a one year seasoned IPSC shooter (not someone with a black badge and 2 matches ) any gun used by any agency in Canada, they will likely qualify at the top of the class.
 
peacefrog said:
Add another classification in IPSC? LEO Class? This way they shoot, compete, get better (maybe), and they can be scored among their peers. Some might actually realize they enjoy shooting, and could then choose to compete in other classes, maybe become "civilian" shooters, once they realize we are, (mostly), the good guys, should they choose to. It's not "tactical", it's trigger time, under stress, and it's a great way to become a better shooter, figure out what to do when you have a FTF, or FTE, or you didn't load up right... all things that will hurt you on the street, but only your ego gets bruised in a match.
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+1,. Ego's aside. ..i wish they would compete more. ....boxers don't become good by stepping in the ring once a year, a bowler does not become good by bowling once a year....etc. my point is this, no one becomes good at anything by doing the least amount of training.
 
MustangFrank said:
One thing competition shooters need to realize is competition shooting has no resemblance to LEO shooting. Even ERT training which is combat oriented, is not like IPSC. Competition shooting is a whole different world, so it stands to reason that anyone who is not experienced in competition shooting will not do well at first.

The animosity from many of the haters on this forum does not create the warm feeling other shooters might receive as well. Did you ever see Indy Car drivers enter Nascar and clean house ? Same kind of thing.
Click to expand...

here's something I posted in a different thread, but equally relevant here:

Here's a short article from an ex "Delta" guy (he was even in the promotional video...) regarding IPSC/USPSA and it's practicality/relevance to the real world.

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/08/18...ment-mcnamara/

I think he sums it up nicely.
 
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