Savage 10TR le/military

twistedbrilliance said:
You know barrel break in is a myth right?
I used the Hornady tool to measure from closed bolt to the lands to develop the best base to Ogive measurement for mine. I am loading 178gr Match HPBT at an overall length of 2.827.
Click to expand...
Hey Twisted:
What Hornady tool are you referring to? Is it the tool where use the screw on brass, that allows you to push a bullet forward until it contacts the lands? if so, then I have
one, but I'll have to get the screw on brass and some bullets before I can actually do some testing.

However, if you are referring to some different gizmo, then please elaborate - I'm all ears.

If you can give me proof that barrel break-in is a myth, then I'll probably kiss you, because I hate doing it!!!
My break-in procedure is strictly to prevent copper build up, so that means using an ammonia based solution that smells like a cats litter box. Then after the shoot in
I have to completely tear down the rifle for a thorough cleaning to insure that none of the ammonia solution remains as it reacts with moisture and causes rust.
Remove this chore from my life and I'll be forever grateful, but I've read a lot of testimonial that has stated otherwise - even Browning recommends the ammonia
solution route.
 
358 BLR said:
Hey Twisted:
What Hornady tool are you referring to? Is it the tool where use the screw on brass, that allows you to push a bullet forward until it contacts the lands? if so, then I have
one, but I'll have to get the screw on brass and some bullets before I can actually do some testing.

However, if you are referring to some different gizmo, then please elaborate - I'm all ears.

If you can give me proof that barrel break-in is a myth, then I'll probably kiss you, because I hate doing it!!!
My break-in procedure is strictly to prevent copper build up, so that means using an ammonia based solution that smells like a cats litter box. Then after the shoot in
I have to completely tear down the rifle for a thorough cleaning to insure that none of the ammonia solution remains as it reacts with moisture and causes rust.
Remove this chore from my life and I'll be forever grateful, but I've read a lot of testimonial that has stated otherwise - even Browning recommends the ammonia
solution route.
Click to expand...
Ahem.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html
 
supernova said:
Carefully check your brass, specifically the shoulder for rub marks. If the bullet was jamming then it will have definite marks on it where it contacted the rifling. I'd be more inclined to believe the brass did not fit your chamber.
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Now that the rifle has had a thorough cleaning, the Noslers seem to chamber much easier. There were no apparent marks on the brass, but there do seem to be some light marks
on the bullets, but that could be my over active imagination. Once I get the brass for the feeler gauge (I can't think of the proper name) I'll have a better idea of what's going on.
 
tactical_tech said:
Ahem.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html
Click to expand...

I've seen this one before and it makes perfect sense, but there is some much people following the barrel break-in procedures that I never know what to believe. Even Savage has a published barrel break-in procedure on their website.

Some of those brake-in are totally exagerated, shooting hundreads of rounds with OCD cleaning between X number of rounds, but the ones that needs 20-30 rounds are more reasonable, but it might all be bull#### and do nothing more than waste time and money.

On a pistol or plinking rifle, I don't bother, but when it comes to a long range precision rifle, I'm always wondering if it's worth doing it "just in case".

Is there some published empirical studies with factual datas on barrel break-in, and not only forum "experts" opinion that could clear this question once and for all?

Of course, break-in or not, a thorough cleaning of a brand new firearm before the first use is always preferable to remove the factory rustproof gunk!
 
Yes that's the tool I was referringto, I just couldn't think of the name of it but it works great to come up with what your max base to Ogive length is and then you can work around that to perfect your loads.
358 BLR said:
Hey Twisted:
What Hornady tool are you referring to? Is it the tool where use the screw on brass, that allows you to push a bullet forward until it contacts the lands? if so, then I have
one, but I'll have to get the screw on brass and some bullets before I can actually do some testing.

However, if you are referring to some different gizmo, then please elaborate - I'm all ears.

If you can give me proof that barrel break-in is a myth, then I'll probably kiss you, because I hate doing it!!!
My break-in procedure is strictly to prevent copper build up, so that means using an ammonia based solution that smells like a cats litter box. Then after the shoot in
I have to completely tear down the rifle for a thorough cleaning to insure that none of the ammonia solution remains as it reacts with moisture and causes rust.
Remove this chore from my life and I'll be forever grateful, but I've read a lot of testimonial that has stated otherwise - even Browning recommends the ammonia
solution route.
Click to expand...
 
is there an alternative to this overpriced Hornady tool, like a simple threaded rod with the correct thread pitch to use with the Hornady modified cases?
 
gunnuts said:
is there an alternative to this overpriced Hornady tool, like a simple threaded rod with the correct thread pitch to use with the Hornady modified cases?
Click to expand...

you can easily make your own its just a threaded case with a handle on the end and a plunger very simple stuff, as long as you can get the round out without re adjusting the plunger somehow i cant see why you couldn't fashion up your own, but I dont know what your time is worth? For 50 bux I think they are an invaluable tool to have in my reloading room
 
stevey3737 said:
you can easily make your own its just a threaded case with a handle on the end and a plunger very simple stuff, as long as you can get the round out without re adjusting the plunger somehow i cant see why you couldn't fashion up your own, but I dont know what your time is worth? For 50 bux I think they are an invaluable tool to have in my reloading room
Click to expand...

I agree, the tool is definitely worth the price. It is tremendously valuable in my process and I could justify paying five times the price, especially when combined with the overall length/ogive comparator tool.
 
Just trying to find distance to rifling?
A very inexpensive option that works great is to simply take a fired case, cut down each side of the neck with a dremel, and bend each side in so it grips the bullet. Seat long, gently chamber this dummy round to seat the bullet - and GENTLY remove. Do it 3-5 times until you keep getting the same reading - this is the distance to the rifling, and you can set your lengths with this info. Fired case is a tad more accurate than a resized case.
I have the sinclair tool - very similar to the hornady, and it works good - but the method above using a spent case works real good. Actually now I just take a fired case, bend the neck a wee bit until it grips the bullet - and do as above. Simple, easy, and inexpensive.
But do invest in an ogive measuring tool - very well spent money if consistency is your gig. Again, the sinclair unit is my choice.
 
chrismc said:
Just trying to find distance to rifling?
A very inexpensive option that works great is to simply take a fired case, cut down each side of the neck with a dremel, and bend each side in so it grips the bullet. Seat long, gently chamber this dummy round to seat the bullet - and GENTLY remove. Do it 3-5 times until you keep getting the same reading - this is the distance to the rifling, and you can set your lengths with this info.
Click to expand...

That's what I do for my calibres too - works great.
 
I tried the Hornady tool but found it to be flawed. The cases provided do not give a measurement from casehead to ogive. Because they are not fireformed you are measuring from wherever the cases shoulder makes contact with your chambers shoulder to bullet ogive and adding the generic headspace measurement of the provided case. Without firmly pressing the casehead against the boltface with your bolt locked, you're getting an artificial measurement. Error varies from one rifle to the next but in my particular rifle, measurements came up short by exactly ten thou. Now I use my own method. I neck size a piece of fire formed brass then run a .310 expander thru the neck (.3085 dia) for a gentle slip fit of a .308 bullet in my .308 case. It provides a good neck tension for the job. Gently chambering the round sets the bullet back to my casehead to ogive measurement with that bullet. I use fireformed brass because if the shoulder is pushed back then you extractor and/or ejector can push the casehead off the boltface before full battery, pushing the bullet deeper in the case. Using the fireformed shoulder prevents that giving a more accurate reading. I find this way gives much more consistent numbers than the Hornady OAL guage too. The Hornady tool gives you a safe number to make meaningful changes to your seating depth, it just isn't a true number. By design the tool cannot give a true reading unless you get a modified case that happens to be an exact match to your chamber. Not likely unless you have a chamber well under min. SAAMI spec.
 
Since many of you consider the Hornady OAL gauge to be a worthy investment, I went to my LGS and picked one up instead of going the «homemade» route.

Regarding the ogive measuring tool, what is the advantage over simply measuring the OAL with a caliper, since my digital caliper already gives me the exact OAL?
 
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gunnuts said:
Since many of you consider the Hornady OAL gauge to be a worthy investment, I went to my LGS and picked one up instead of going the «homemade» route.

Regarding the ogive measuring tool, what is the advantage over simply measuring the OAL with a caliper, since my digital caliper already gives me the exact OAL?
Click to expand...

Ogive is measured from where the projectile starts to "round" out to full calibre size.

I have seen this measurement change slightly in the same box of projectiles let alone from lot to lot.....
 
supernova said:
I tried the Hornady tool but found it to be flawed. The cases provided do not give a measurement from casehead to ogive. Because they are not fireformed you are measuring from wherever the cases shoulder makes contact with your chambers shoulder to bullet ogive and adding the generic headspace measurement of the provided case. Without firmly pressing the casehead against the boltface with your bolt locked, you're getting an artificial measurement. Error varies from one rifle to the next but in my particular rifle, measurements came up short by exactly ten thou. Now I use my own method. I neck size a piece of fire formed brass then run a .310 expander thru the neck (.3085 dia) for a gentle slip fit of a .308 bullet in my .308 case. It provides a good neck tension for the job. Gently chambering the round sets the bullet back to my casehead to ogive measurement with that bullet. I use fireformed brass because if the shoulder is pushed back then you extractor and/or ejector can push the casehead off the boltface before full battery, pushing the bullet deeper in the case. Using the fireformed shoulder prevents that giving a more accurate reading. I find this way gives much more consistent numbers than the Hornady OAL guage too. The Hornady tool gives you a safe number to make meaningful changes to your seating depth, it just isn't a true number. By design the tool cannot give a true reading unless you get a modified case that happens to be an exact match to your chamber. Not likely unless you have a chamber well under min. SAAMI spec.
Click to expand...
There are two ways that you can eliminate the headspace variation.
The first is to use the Hornady headspace gauge to measure the difference between the base to datum line on the modified case and your fire formed case.
The second is to take a fire formed case which has a loose primer pocket and drill and tap it to be used as a modified case.
Use a "K" ( 0.2811") drill bit and a 5/16-36 tap.
 
gunnuts said:
is there an alternative to this overpriced Hornady tool, like a simple threaded rod with the correct thread pitch to use with the Hornady modified cases?
Click to expand...

I can't make the tool for what it cost to purchase just calculating the time it would take me to round up the material so I bought 2, a straight and later a curved one.
 
I use the Hornady tool cause it is a lot cheaper than trying to make your own.
Make your own modified case from a fire formed case. Fits chamber perfectly, is cheap (HDY mod case are 10 bucks if you can find them). I usually take at least three measurement and have been getting 1/1000" variances.
Got the tap off eBay.
 
thump_rrr said:
There are two ways that you can eliminate the headspace variation.
The first is to use the Hornady headspace gauge to measure the difference between the base to datum line on the modified case and your fire formed case.
The second is to take a fire formed case which has a loose primer pocket and drill and tap it to be used as a modified case.
Use a "K" ( 0.2811") drill bit and a 5/16-36 tap.
Click to expand...

That drill bit and tap info is very useful and very hard to find.
I spent a lot of time trying to make a modified case for a 358 Win, but I could never find the information on the sizes required.

Thanks, I needed that. :)
 
Another very simple inexpensive way is to simply hold gun barrel down, and drop a bullet in the chamber - then rest a cleaning rod on the bottom of the bullet. Mark this on the cleaning rod where it exits the rear of the receiver (i use a blade to slightly score the rod - much more accurate than a pen). Then remove bullet, and drop in a fire formed case. Put same cleaning rod in, rest it on bottom of case, and mark it too, same way as above, at the point at the rear of receiver.

Measure bullet. Measure distance between marks on cleaning rod. Add two together, and thats the cartridge OAL to where your rifling starts.
 
I now have the OAL gauge in hand, and I can see that it's a quality tool, sturdier than it looked in pictures.

I have modified cases, but I also ordered the appropriate tap on ebay to be able to do my own modified cases from fire formed cases.



As for the bullet comparator, has anyone ever used this tool from sinclair (it's cheaper than the hornady, smaller to store when not in use, and no parts to lose!):

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...r-hex-style-bullet-comparators-prod34262.aspx

It seems to be a pretty good and simple tool, so unless someone tells me it's a POS, I think I'll go with that.
 
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