Discussion Why 308 and not NEW

[DAJA]

The most OBVIOUS reason for .308 that no one has mentioned so far ???

When the Zonbies or the uniformed jack booted thugs come over the hill, bettin' us .308 guys will have a hell of a lot more .308 stocked away than almost any 6mm shooter.

For certain applications..... when it comes to ammo quantity will trump quality.

 

[manitou210]

Has anyone mentioned wind yet? That is where the 308 gets beat by the 6.5 calibers, wind drift.

Easy now the FTR F class guys are now using 200,210 215 gr bullets out of 32" barrels here is BC on .308 and your 6.5

BC
210 gr Match VLD Target .308 210 0.631 0.323 11 30415
215 gr Match Hybrid Target .308 215 0.696 0.356 10 30429
230 gr Match Hybrid Target .308 230 0.743 0.380 10 30430

6.5 Bergers BC
140 gr Match Long Range BT Target .264 140 0.592 0.303 8 26409
140 gr Match Hybrid Target .264 140 0.618 0.317 8 26414

 

[J996]

Easy now the FTR F class guys are now using 200,210 215 gr bullets out of 32" barrels here is BC on .308 and your 6.5

BC
210 gr Match VLD Target .308 210 0.631 0.323 11 30415
215 gr Match Hybrid Target .308 215 0.696 0.356 10 30429
230 gr Match Hybrid Target .308 230 0.743 0.380 10 30430

6.5 Bergers BC
140 gr Match Long Range BT Target .264 140 0.592 0.303 8 26409
140 gr Match Hybrid Target .264 140 0.618 0.317 8 26414

That is all fine and good, but they are doing that because they are stuck with the .308, it's a compromise.
Launching a bullet of that size out of a small case is neither efficient or enjoyable due to the added recoil. The whole idea behind a small efficient cartridge like the .260 is it offers good ballistics with very little recoil.
For launching the heavy .30 cal bullets the .300 win mag is the better platform . Way more energy and a much flatter trajectory.

 

[pogo_]

taged

 

[Tomochan]

I am a keen supporter of the .308 and, simply put, it is my 'go to' cartridge. I have five very nice rifles chambered in .308 and yet when all is said and done I have to agree that the .260 offers better ballistics and as J996 pointed out above the .300wm ( and for that matter the venerable 30-06 ) does a much better job of launching the .30 calibre heavies.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Over the last couple of years, the performance of the 308 as used in FTR has taken a substantial jump. At 1000yds, the difference between FTR and F Open has shrunk to the point that either group can win on any target when shooting side by side.

Soooo, the modern 308 is far from inefficient or ineffective. In fact, I would say just the opposite. Like the 6BR, the smaller case can be hotrodded very nicely in long barrels and heavy rifles.

Compared to the 300WM, the FTR 308 can now meet or beat many of the common loads. To really exceed, the recoil levels and bore wear is substantial when using the 300WM

Now a FTR rig is 18lbs so recoil is not the same as comparing to a 8 lbs hunting rifle. The recoil can be tamed further and the end result is not much more energetic then shooting a 243 out of a typical varmint rifle. I can spot my own impacts on rocks and gongs with LR accuracy sub 1/2 min, so tracking is every bit as good as many pedestal rests.

I have shot the 6.5 for many yrs and competed with it so am very familiar with what it can do. Current 7mm's bring even more joy to the party. And Yes, I have built and shot boomers.

But for comparison, my FTR drifts approx 7 min in a 10 MPH crosswind at 1000yds. A typical 7mm/180gr Hybrid load will drift 5.5 min in the same wind. In general, competitive shooters are not going to miss a 10MPH full value wind... kind of obvious.

So let's see what happens when it drops to 2MPH which is similar to a localised gust, let off or switch... my 308 1.4min, the 7mm 1.1min or put another way.....

The difference in a 2mph mis read by both shooters is 2.6" more drift at 1000yds from my 308 vs the typical F open 284 load.

For scoring on a 1/2 min V bull, you bet it can matter. For the average shooter launching lead at rocks and gongs, I doubt that can hold to that level of accuracy anyways.

You can always use larger case and push bullets faster but it will also always come with higher costs and higher recoil.

There is alot to be said for the modern 308 and LR shooting. The longest I have plinked with my FTR was 1200m and it was a no brainer.

As for accuracy, many FTR rifles are now meeting 1/4 min accuracy way the heck out there. This class is really pushing the limits of what the 308 case can do.

YMMV.

Jerry

 

[DAJA]

Jerry,

I'm sure you wrote this out all ready in the thread and I did read it all but can you please give a short definition of the modern .308 vs the old school .308? And how much of this can be applied to different forms of shooting vs F Class?

Thank you.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Loading techniques have gotten better as have the tools we can now use. Outside neck turning and proper annealing have gone along ways to maintain low vertical at LR. Better scales let us tune to very small increments.

Stronger brass has let us push pressures to magnum levels - and no, you do not need small primer brass which has issues of its own.

Setting longer throats to deal with the big heavy bullets leave more case volume for powder. More powders to fuel our end results

Longer barrels to extract as much speed as possible.

Nothing really radical but maximising what we already have.... and paying attention to the details.

Jerry

 

[DAJA]

Loading techniques have gotten better as have the tools we can now use. Outside neck turning and proper annealing have gone along ways to maintain low vertical at LR. Better scales let us tune to very small increments.

Stronger brass has let us push pressures to magnum levels - and no, you do not need small primer brass which has issues of its own.

Setting longer throats to deal with the big heavy bullets leave more case volume for powder. More powders to fuel our end results

Longer barrels to extract as much speed as possible.

Nothing really radical but maximizing what we already have.... and paying attention to the details.

Jerry

Pretty much what I figured you would say. I'm trying to learn what I can from the F-Class guys to transfer into "long range field condition" shooting. We tend to use about 22" heavy barrels since we drag things around, don't think that is going to change. However, whatever we can learn from people like yourself helps to make our job more effective.

F-Class will never be drag through the mud field shooting but equally long range field stuff will never be F-class even though we often need to be accurate. The cross over between the two disciplines is very interesting.

Maybe I missed it but what do you consider to be the strongest currently available .308 brass?

Thank you for taking the time to answer.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Brass I currently use is PRVI - very strong, thick and heavy.. nice stuff.

Several of my FTRs use Savage repeater actions.

Except for muzzle velocity, there is no reason why a hunting rig can't be every bit as accurate as a FTR rifle.

That is what custom rifles are all about.

Jerry

 

[Protege]

Thank you for this fairly mature discussion. Everytime i search for info regarding the 308win it usually ends up with hunting talk. Now if we could discuss about the 243win, 270win, 3006, and 7mm rem mag for paper punching use that would be awesome. Thanks guys.

 

[Mystic Precision]

The process is exactly the same regardless of the chambering. Quality barrels and chambered properly. Well made and tuned ammo using accurate bullet.

You can compare the ballistics using programs like JBM... everything you could possible want to number crunch is easily accessible now.

It is all a compromise between recoil, bore wear, costs, ballistics. Depending on your end use goals and budget, everything works.. nothing works.

Start with well defined end use goals and budget BEFORE worrying about the parts.

The biggest mistake is fixating on the stuff before you even know what you want to do with it.

I use this alot with new enquiries... which is better a knife or a spoon?

When the customer understands what they are going to do with the utensil, the choice is easy and obvious.

Jerry

 

[6MT]

Thank you for this fairly mature discussion. Everytime i search for info regarding the 308win it usually ends up with hunting talk. Now if we could discuss about the 243win, 270win, 3006, and 7mm rem mag for paper punching use that would be awesome. Thanks guys.

Check out the .308 pages on 6mmbr forum.

 

[DAJA]

Brass I currently use is PRVI - very strong, thick and heavy.. nice stuff.

Several of my FTRs use Savage repeater actions.

Except for muzzle velocity, there is no reason why a hunting rig can't be every bit as accurate as a FTR rifle.

That is what custom rifles are all about.

Jerry

PRVI brass .... interesting, didn't expect that.

Thanks Jerry ! Great information.

 

[DAJA]

The process is exactly the same regardless of the chambering. Quality barrels and chambered properly. Well made and tuned ammo using accurate bullet.

You can compare the ballistics using programs like JBM... everything you could possible want to number crunch is easily accessible now.

It is all a compromise between recoil, bore wear, costs, ballistics. Depending on your end use goals and budget, everything works.. nothing works.

Start with well defined end use goals and budget BEFORE worrying about the parts.

The biggest mistake is fixating on the stuff before you even know what you want to do with it.

I use this alot with new enquiries... which is better a knife or a spoon?

When the customer understands what they are going to do with the utensil, the choice is easy and obvious.

Jerry

Extremely import point Jerry.
What exactly are you doing with this tool? Took me awhile to learn that lesson. Its fun to contemplate the "do all" rifle and its possibly important to own one but it you want to maximize a rifles capabilities you have to define exactly what you are going to do with it before even thinking of purchasing/building something.