358 Norma MAG vs 338 WIN MAG vs 9.3x62 vs 35 Whelen

BigUglyMan: It's my long term plan to move from the 30-06 to two different rifles, one in a "light" chambering (6.5mm, .270 or 7mm/.280) and another in a "medium" (.338, .358, 9.3mm or .375). I see the 30-06 as an excellent crossover cartridge, and as one poster mentioned it would do what I want when loaded with a stout bullet.

Generally speaking (I'm in BC) it seems there are two classes of popular game animals. There is the 300 lb and under category (deer, sheep, goats and normal sized black bear) and the 600 lb plus category (elk, moose, bison and grizzly). Ideally, a pair of hunting rifles, one a lightweight rifle (7.5 lbs all up or less) in a "light" chambering and another normal weight rifle (8 to 9 lbs all up) in a "medium" chambering would excellently cover all BC hunting.
After reading the responses, it seems the differences between the "medium" cartridges mentioned are largely academic. I think my preference would be the 9.3x62 for a couple of reasons: It launches a heavy bullet at moderate velocity (I don't see many shots being taken over 250 yds) and it has a 30-06 diameter case and most rifles with hold five in the magazine without modification. Unlike any of the .358 caliber cartridges (358 Norma MAG, 35 Whelen, 358 WIN ect) the 9.3x62 is experiencing a surge in popularity which makes component availability likely to increase.
At the current time I'd like a Brno ZG47 in 9.3x62 ceracoated and in a synthetic stock for all weather durability. However, if I find a nice rifle in one of the other discussed cartridges, I'm unlikely to turn that down either! So much for making up my mind hah!
 
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SC........The 338 failures I have seen were when ranges exceeded 250 mtrs and the wound channels showed almost zero expansion and several hits were required to put the animal down, or it was backed up by a better cartridge. There is a 300 fps advantage to the 340 regardless of what load manuals say (they are all anti-Wby) and that seems to make all the difference in the world. The best performance of the 338, that I have seen was a buddy who loaded nothing but 200 gn Speers and had very good success with his, but if one is going to use 200 gn bullets I prefer my 300s for that. The 250 Sierra BT worked ok way out there, but came completely unglued and left nothing but shards of lead and copper at 50 mtrs. I have owned 3 different 338s but found their performance on game to be unreliable, whereas the 340 with 250 Parts at 3100 fps is the most impressive killer I have seen from 50-600 mtrs. The newer bullets may improve the 338 WM but I somehow doubt it, it is a great 200 mtr rifle but an abysmal failure beyond that in my personal experience.
On further thought the 338 may actually be a good cartridge with Matrix bullets.............but still not in the same league as the 340 Wby.
The 358 NM that I have seen used on game was most visably better than the 338 and got outstanding expansion, penetration and performance right out to 400 mtrs, using a 250 gn Speer HC. The best 35 I have ever seen used on game was my buddies 35-404 Imp, but then he was driving 250 gn A-frames at 3200 fps.......it was a brute and right up there with the 378 Wby for recoil. This cartridge absolutely shredded 250 Speer HCs like they were varmint bullets..........
 
c-fbmi: From what I can can gather, it seems terminal performance is poor when a stout bullet impacts too slowly to expand rapidly enough to cause extensive damage. I can see this as an issue with the 338 WIN MAG as the bullet designers seem to make the stout bullets so they hold up to 338-378 WBY velocities. This doesn't seem to be as much an issue with the 358 Norma MAG and 9.3x62 as they are both at the top of the heap in power in their respective caliber.
I was reading some culling research out of New Zealand and they found that moderately to lightly constructed bullets in the 358 and 9.3 caused significant damage on the elk as the bullets were significantly and consistently expanding and not prone to "pencilling" through.
In my opinion, I think too much emphasis is placed on the cartridge used and not enough on the bullet used (excluding using a cartridge grossly unsuited for the task, ex. a 223 REM on elk or other such foolish stunts).
 
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Omenator said:
BigUglyMan: It's my long term plan to move from the 30-06 to two different rifles, one in a "light" chambering (6.5mm, .270 or 7mm/.280) and another in a "medium" (.338, .358, 9.3mm or .375). I see the 30-06 as an excellent crossover cartridge, and as one poster mentioned it would do what I want when loaded with a stout bullet.

Generally speaking (I'm in BC) it seems there are two classes of popular game animals. There is the 300 lb and under category (deer, sheep, goats and normal sized black bear) and the 600 lb plus category (elk, moose, bison and grizzly). Ideally, a pair of hunting rifles, one a lightweight rifle (7.5 lbs all up or less) in a "light" chambering and another normal weight rifle (8 to 9 lbs all up) in a "medium" chambering would excellently cover all BC hunting.
After reading the responses, it seems the differences between the "medium" cartridges mentioned are largely academic. I think my preference would be the 9.3x62 for a couple of reasons: It launches a heavy bullet at moderate velocity (I don't see many shots being taken over 250 yds) and it has a 30-06 diameter case and most rifles with hold five in the magazine without modification. Unlike any of the .358 caliber cartridges (358 Norma MAG, 35 Whelen, 358 WIN ect) the 9.3x62 is experiencing a surge in popularity which makes component availability likely to increase.
At the current time I'd like a Brno ZG47 in 9.3x62 ceracoated and in a synthetic stock for all weather durability. However, if I find a nice rifle in one of the other discussed cartridges, I'm unlikely to turn that down either! So much for making up my mind hah!
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I've done the same thing. I'm selling or have sold all my extra rifles. Kept a tikka t3 lite in 6.5x55 and a howa 1500 in 375 ruger. Good enough for me.
 
Omenator said:
c-fbmi: From what I can can gather, it seems terminal performance is poor when a stout bullet impacts to slowly to expand rapidly enough to cause extensive damage. I can see this as an issue with the 338 WIN MAG as the bullet designers seem to make the stout bullets so they hold up to 338-378 WBY velocities. This doesn't seem to be as much an issue with the 358 Norma MAG and 9.3x62 as they are both at the top of the heap in power in their respective caliber.


You hit the nail right on the head Omen, hence the reason the 340 works so well against the poor performance of the 338, 300 fps makes all the difference in the world. You are also right on with respect to the 358 and 9.3..........correct bullet construction for velocity available.........
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Throttle_monkey1 said:
I've done the same thing. I'm selling or have sold all my extra rifles. Kept a tikka t3 lite in 6.5x55 and a howa 1500 in 375 ruger. Good enough for me.
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At my age, a little 'downsizing' seems to be something I should be doing,:redface: I seem to have taken the opposite approach. Actually gone the other direction far enough, I now have duplicates in some calibres.
Starting with a pair of 358 Norma Mags, a Husqvarna 1651 and a Schultz & Larsen, 68DL.



Then, a pair of 7x57s. A Ruger Hawkeye RSI and a Zastava



And recently, further to my 'addiction', two 375s. A Winchester model 70 Super Express in 375H&H and a custom job in 375 Chatfield Taylor.



:redface: In all honesty, I don't know how much field use they'll all get but in addition to that, a good part of the 'enjoyment' for me comes from the shooting of and reloading for them all:d.
 
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I know what you mean! I'm still trying to buy my dad's 7mm and 30-06 Carl gustaf FFV husky 1900 actions, but who am I kidding, I wouldn't use them.
 
Throttle_monkey1 said:
I know what you mean! I'm still trying to buy my dad's 7mm and 30-06 Carl gustaf FFV husky 1900 actions, but who am I kidding, I wouldn't use them.
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My God..........you mean we are actually supposed to shoot and use all the rifles we own? Man have I missed the mark then...........I own something north of 180 firearms and I have dozens I have yet to shoot and hundred and fifty or so that I will never use in the field or on the range..........Are you saying my wife may be right? HERESY........I refuse to believe that, can't I just own guns 'cause they're pretty, or I like the sound of their model or the cartridge designation? I don't think I like your criteria for gun ownership..........you sound exactly like my wife.........:(:(;);)
 
Omenator said:
c-fbmi: From what I can can gather, it seems terminal performance is poor when a stout bullet impacts to slowly to expand rapidly enough to cause extensive damage. I can see this as an issue with the 338 WIN MAG as the bullet designers seem to make the stout bullets so they hold up to 338-378 WBY velocities. This doesn't seem to be as much an issue with the 358 Norma MAG and 9.3x62 as they are both at the top of the heap in power in their respective caliber.
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c-fbmi said:
You hit the nail right on the head Omen, hence the reason the 340 works so well against the poor performance of the 338, 300 fps makes all the difference in the world. You are also right on with respect to the 358 and 9.3..........correct bullet construction for velocity available.........
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OK ..... I totally understand (& agree with) what Omenator said, but for discussion sake here, why would bullet designers make 338" bullets stout enough for 340WBY/338RUM velocities when the vast majority of 338s are of the WinMag variety. In the past I've seen 30cal bullets by the same producer for magnums and non-magnums separated for the consumer to overcome velocity differentials.

With that in mind, would the 250gr Speer not be a good choice for my 358Winchester for heavier game?
 
SuperCub said:
OK ..... I totally understand (& agree with) what Omenator said, but for discussion sake here, why would bullet designers make 338" bullets stout enough for 340WBY/338RUM velocities when the vast majority of 338s are of the WinMag variety. In the past I've seen 30cal bullets by the same producer for magnums and non-magnums separated for the consumer to overcome velocity differentials.

With that in mind, would the 250gr Speer not be a good choice for my 358Winchester for heavier game?[/QUOTE]

It certainly would SC but I doubt you'd be trying to peel over moose at 350 mtrs with it. Like I said the 338 was good inside 200 mtrs but failed miserably at 300 and beyond. And of course everybody using a 338 WM thinks it should work out to 500 mtrs cause it's a MAGNUM..........
I also suspect that 340/338-378/338 Lap/338 RUM shooters have a little more of the bullet manufacturers attention than the unwashed masses who use the 338 WM. These kind of shooters are more prone to post here and there if a bullet fails miserably also more prone to contact the makers with bullet failure complaints. Pin holing is a kind of failure less prone to complaint, some animals just wander off and are lost giving no indication of a hit, and very little if any blood trail. A guy just thinks he missed in many cases..........whereas explosive failure is always much more evident and generally fatal but really messy with a bullet the size of a 338 bullet. Just a theory...........

PS...I have found all my various 300 mags to be far superior killers out past 400 mtrs and even up close than any 338 WM with any bullet weight. And that is from a fair bit of experience..........The 340 is absolutely evil in it's destruction close or far, but requires a good bullet.
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In reply to SuperCub, it seems that prevailing opinion is that 250 grains is too much for the 358 Win. Current factory loads are 200 gr. and load data limits out at 225 gr. it is a small case and 250's start to limit powder capacity.

Choose a great 225 bullet like a Swift, Nosler or Woodleigh and drive it fast as you can.

P.
 
c-fbmi said:
My God..........you mean we are actually supposed to shoot and use all the rifles we own? Man have I missed the mark then...........I own something north of 180 firearms and I have dozens I have yet to shoot and hundred and fifty or so that I will never use in the field or on the range..........Are you saying my wife may be right? HERESY........I refuse to believe that, can't I just own guns 'cause they're pretty, or I like the sound of their model or the cartridge designation? I don't think I like your criteria for gun ownership..........you sound exactly like my wife.........:(:(;);)
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Now I feel better. I keep trying to convince my wife, there's a need for rainy day Deer guns, sunny day Deer guns, rainy day Moose guns and sunny day Moose guns etc etc. Then of course, there's timber guns and open country guns for all. Now I feel MUCH better:d:d.
 
c-fbmi said:
My God..........you mean we are actually supposed to shoot and use all the rifles we own? Man have I missed the mark then...........I own something north of 180 firearms and I have dozens I have yet to shoot and hundred and fifty or so that I will never use in the field or on the range..........Are you saying my wife may be right? HERESY........I refuse to believe that, can't I just own guns 'cause they're pretty, or I like the sound of their model or the cartridge designation? I don't think I like your criteria for gun ownership..........you sound exactly like my wife.........:(:(;);)
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I agree with you, but for me hoarding guns a motorcycles is just too much money tied up. I keep telling myself that twelve guns and two bikes is enough. Maybe I just need a second job.
 
Na TM1..........you're just getting started, tell your wife you know a guy with 185 guns and 10 cars including a Ferrari, several corvettes, 68 'Stang, Jaguar, 55 Belaire and a couple Opel GTs and a couple I'm sure I forgot. Then she'll feel better about you and let you have more...........ya, right!!!
Ya gotta tell her they represent an investment and good collector cars (bikes) never go down in price neither do guns..........therefore you're hedging the future and putting your money where it's going to give you the best return, down the road. And that is the truth. Besides if the US economy does collapse we're going right down the tubes with them and the only thing of value will be firearms and enough ammo to keep you and yours safe.
 
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Of the initial choices at the start of the thread, my vote goes to the 35Whelen. I am still kicking myself for parting with mine. It launched the 200gr shelf loads from Remington into a tight cloverleaf. I really liked the performance reviews on game from the Federal 225gr Bearclaw, but never had a chance to try them. Only ever used the 35 for two field shots, one being an elk, the other a gopher. The elk dropped without a step, took the gopher's top half off. Recoil was mild.

Can't comment on the 9.3s that were tabled, but the 375H&H is a beautiful cartridge choice. Recoil from my 375H&H is similar to a 30-06 with a hot load now that I added a Limbsaver grind to Fit pad. The accuracy from the 375 helps get me through the regrets of selling the 35.
 
patricksbb391 said:
In reply to SuperCub, it seems that prevailing opinion is that 250 grains is too much for the 358 Win. Current factory loads are 200 gr. and load data limits out at 225 gr. it is a small case and 250's start to limit powder capacity.

Choose a great 225 bullet like a Swift, Nosler or Woodleigh and drive it fast as you can.

P.
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Now this advice right here I totally disagree with, the 358 Win does NOT require premium bullets and may actually be handicapped trying to use them. I personally would use the 225 Sierra BT or the 220 Speer and for a heavy bullet exactly what you said SC, the 250 Speer HC. I wouldn't go closer to a premium bullet than the 225 AB, which I use in my 350 RM and it opens wonderfully. The 220 Speer HC, the kid uses in his 350 RM to great success and picture perfect expansion, the 358 would work with either of these but going to a premium bullet would cause exactly what I experienced with the 338. The 225 Nosler Part may be the exception as the nose will expand easily and the shank will penetrate, even at 358 Win velocities.
 
I have used a 225 Partition and the a- frame of same weight with text book success. The Partition out of a Savage 99 at normal/loading manual speeds and the Swift at faster speeds out of a Ruger bolt. That said, both kills on large white tails under 180 yards.

Not looking for an argument. And I think a 338 WM is a nice calibre.
 
I've had great success with the .338 WM on moose and elk using 250g CoreLokt ammo and hand loads with 250g Grand Slams out to 300 yards.
Now I'll try using a load with 225g Hornady Interlock bullets at 2825 fps. I'm sure it will do just fine :)
 
c-fbmi said:
Omenator said:
c-fbmi: From what I can can gather, it seems terminal performance is poor when a stout bullet impacts to slowly to expand rapidly enough to cause extensive damage. I can see this as an issue with the 338 WIN MAG as the bullet designers seem to make the stout bullets so they hold up to 338-378 WBY velocities. This doesn't seem to be as much an issue with the 358 Norma MAG and 9.3x62 as they are both at the top of the heap in power in their respective caliber.


You hit the nail right on the head Omen, hence the reason the 340 works so well against the poor performance of the 338, 300 fps makes all the difference in the world. You are also right on with respect to the 358 and 9.3..........correct bullet construction for velocity available.........
Click to expand...

So are you saying that the 325 wsm is better than the 338 win mag?
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