300 wsm bouncing POI..problem solved. post #15

icehunter121

icehunter121

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This is driving me nuts!! Worked on a friends Savage rifle in 300 WSM with detachable mag. It will fire the first shot just high of the bull and then second shot about same elevation but to the left. About 2 inches. So reworked the rifle for him,bedded it,strenghtened up the fore end with key stock and bedding,lower rings that are lapped etc etc. The scope is a vortex ( cant remember which model it is) So today we try it out again. I am busy shooting H/G and walking back and forth between to see how his rifle is doing. He has a friend shooting it as he hurt his back a few days ago and is in some pain.

So...first shooter makes adjustment for right hand windage adjustment to get it zeroed..adjust for 3 inches and all of a sudden it jumps 6 inches. I tell him to re-adjust and fire for a group. First shot is high of the bull and 2nd shot to the left about 2 inches. We let the rifle cool and the owner decides to brave it with a screwed up back and fires 2 shots...exact same thing. First shot high and 2nd shot to the left in a diff group. First group is about 1.25 inches aand the group to the left is .5 for 2 shots. So back to hand gun shooting and let it cool down. Then I tried it out. My first shot went between the 2 shots on the left side. So now we have a 3 shot group at .5 inches to the left. I told him lets cool it for 5 minutes and I will try it again. So last round of ammo he has and I let er go. Now its back to the center group....So its completely reversed for me.

I am really thinking that this scope is bouncing between the 2 groups...but doing it accurately!! If it was the rifle I would think it should be just opening up as the barrel heated up. The barrel has no pressure points contacting it,receiver and first inch of barrel bedded. Rear stock/receiver screw has been bedded for contact. Or is the stock flexing in some weird stupid way that goes against nature and the universe?? Its a tupper ware stock...this thing has me baffled!!

Thoughts?? Good cookie recipes?? Cures for them nights when you wake up at 2 am and have to post in CGN???
 
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No cures for using CGN to pass time in the middle of the night....sorry. Check the time of a lot of my posts, and you'll see that I'm up, stewing with you!!

I'd blame the scope first. Do you have another you could bolt on to try??

-J.
 
Gunneegoogoo said:
No cures for using CGN to pass time in the middle of the night....sorry. Check the time of a lot of my posts, and you'll see that I'm up, stewing with you!!

I'd blame the scope first. Do you have another you could bolt on to try??

-J.
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Yup got one...a known 2.5 x 10 x 40 that I know is good..But now it decided to rain here in sunny Alberta...Guess its only sunny when the sun comes up ehh!!!
 
Most likely the scope if its truely two groups, if you have another known good scope give it a try. With the adjustment isuue you mentioned likely something let go in the erector assembly. Possibly a paralax issue with eye placement behind the scope as well. Keep the rifle steady as a rock and move your eye behind yhe dcope and watch how far the crosshairs move.
Or you are actually getting a 2" group and need to try other loads. I have a savage that prints groups with very little vertical, but pretty wide- like 3-4" wide with loads it doesnt like.
 
LongBomber said:
Most likely the scope if its truely two groups, if you have another known good scope give it a try. With the adjustment isuue you mentioned likely something let go in the erector assembly. Possibly a paralax issue with eye placement behind the scope as well. Keep the rifle steady as a rock and move your eye behind yhe dcope and watch how far the crosshairs move.
Or you are actually getting a 2" group and need to try other loads. I have a savage that prints groups with very little vertical, but pretty wide- like 3-4" wide with loads it doesnt like.
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If it was a paralax issue it wouldn't be one here then one there...and repeat again with 3 different shooters. Its still like its shooting 2 different groups. Paralax would have them thrown all over...
 
That is not the scope........when a scope goes for sh!t, it does not consistently go back and forth like that. That is a barrel/bedding problem, could be the barrel is stressed and doing a little walking but one needs to fire 3 shots to find this out. My first action when I see this with one of my rifles is to put a pressure point between forend tip and barrel.....this usually stops the wandering, at least for 2 or 3 shots.
Forget the scope it is not the problem, trust me............
 
c-fbmi said:
That is not the scope........when a scope goes for sh!t, it does not consistently go back and forth like that. That is a barrel/bedding problem, could be the barrel is stressed and doing a little walking but one needs to fire 3 shots to find this out. My first action when I see this with one of my rifles is to put a pressure point between forend tip and barrel.....this usually stops the wandering, at least for 2 or 3 shots.
Forget the scope it is not the problem, trust me............
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Interesting, I gave up on Vortex scopes, same thing happened with two different scopes. Kept changing POI under recoil and not every time. Proved it by putting on another scope brand both times. Vortex did refund my money ... good on them. I stay way from them and went back to 4200's and a Leupold.
 
Double grouping is often a symptom of poor bedding. I've come to view any bedding job that won't let the barrelled action fall out under its own weight with suspicion. I've also calmed some erratic barrels down with forend pressure. That could have been because it was a crutch to bad bedding but it does sometimes work.

Something else you can check is sort of Savage specific. Sometimes the recoil lug sits slightly higher than the action and the front mount crosses both of them. That can make them do some pretty crazy things. Filing away a bit of material from the front underside of the front base so it clears the lug costs nothing, is invisible and gives you a chance to check and re-Loctite the screws.
 
c-fbmi said:
That is not the scope........when a scope goes for sh!t, it does not consistently go back and forth like that... Forget the scope it is not the problem....
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Agreed ! When a scope goes it really goes. It will be all over the place and certainly not consistently provide two accurate groups.
 
icehunter121 said:
This is driving me nuts!! Worked on a friends Savage rifle in 300 WSM with detachable mag.
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Which model? What barrel thickness?

I have a Savage Lightweight hunter in .308 that can put the first two shots in the same hole (reloads) at 100meters... but every shot after that will start to wander up and to the left: I contribute it to a thin barrel and heat from hot reloads that shoot very accurately when cold. But then again, if I can't get my deer with a cold barrel I need to stay home, IMO. Also, with the thin wood and not a lot of space for the free float it hates bi-pods and any bag or heavy support at the tip of the wood, as well any contact with the barrel. The gun on the first two shots is more accurate than I can shoot with my reloads, but fussy as all heck at the range! Oh, and yes, I have had amazing accuracy shooting it in the field to harvest my winter's meat.

My opinionated guess is either one of three things:
1. The bedding and/or barrel contact is not right for the firearm,
2. The way you are supporting it for that firearm is not right, or
3. The way each person is supporting, holding and firing the gun is not consistent.

Those are just some other ideas based on what I have struggled through with my Savage rifle.
 
A Vortex rep was at cabelas yesterday. Rifle owner talked to him and he said please bring it back for a full exchange. Money back in full or pay for a upgrade. He also told me the rep mentioned that maybe at gas filling the tube wasn't quite full and could cause a problem. Pretty cool warranty by them,specially after being used. Also forgot to mention that the eye relief is about half of what it should be...When I talked to the owner this AM...he was gonna upgrade by the sounds of it. See what happens I guess..
 
That's great news. Vortex is well known for their complete no BS warranty!!!

Bet you 6 Pilsner that when you get that new one on there she's better...

-J.
 
Every Savage I have owned did not like any contact with the tang. Make sure the tang of the action is free floated or it can cause all sorts of fliers.
 
Vortex may have a great warranty policy, but they also seem to have a much higher failure rate. I certainly wouldn't care about warranty if my scope stopped working on a hunt in the middle of nowhere,

Patrick
 
It was the scope...pure and simple. Friend traded up under warranty and we got it out today. Used some factory federal ammo which it hated. He was getting fed up and I told him to let me at it. I tried out the load I suggested to him with a hornady slug. First 3 went into .75...4th my screwup opened it up to 1.25...5th then went back into the .75 group. Next load I tried of his went .75 using 150 grain nosler ballistic tips --3 shots. Then he fired 3 shots with 168 A-Max and got .75....Lets just say he is a pretty happy camper right now!!
 
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