All is Not Right in Eotech Land... *UPDATE Getting Worse*

[LeftFootOfDoom]

anyone else get the feeling 0.5 is some kid that just got their PAL?

Dude, I don't know you or if you've ever served, but you do realize that actual shooting is a small part of the skills and knowledge base required in an inf setting.
Being able to put 5 rounds into a <1inch group comes way way way after:
patrolling skills
fire and movement
FIBUA
17 steps to battle procedure
Nato standardized orders format for patrols, defence etc
radio voice procedure
laundry day
paying your chit at the canteen truck
archie comics
getting your dress uniform cleaned for the regt bday
etc etc

go tell guys that have just finished their 2 x10s that their marksmanship is inferior and see how many give a f.

 

[RobertMcC]

To a good 3 gunner these guys dont look very good. Just check out the muzzle flip on the sig and they miss at 7 yards. 3 gunners can hit those targets from 50 yards away and the rifle from 500 yards , i mean come on,at least 1 guy had an aimpoint.

Comparing sport shooter with operational forces HAAHAHA. How about you jump and do their thing? More then just shooting involved.

People like you and TWB25 are worthy of the ignore list. Youtubers and I read here but I got zero real first hand experience. Your worst then Knightley/Canadian1911/Whatever His name is now or SUNRAY.

 

[RobertMcC]

Being shot at is not that big of a deal, its happened to me on more then 1 occasion, training and skills are still there. 3 gun is not just a fun sport, it is based on a military cqb and long distance scenerios as per the miller brothers intended it to be. Some guys down here take 3 gun very seriously, its good training that makes for good skills out on the field. Leos often get stuck in a handgun fight out in the open, speed and accuracy wins a gun fight, DVC.

You wear breathable polos and light weight paints, light weight boots. barely retenchable holsters for maximum draw saving time. HELL they make clothes just for the 3 gun sports. You put big controls, huge comps, giant magwells. Normally multi color guns, Yea theirs training involved and real military ####...No 16lbs of armor plates, no 10 30rd mags, not other mission kit... Your COOL.

Shotguns with the most longest mag extensions on it...

But HEY 3 guns guys apparently better then a solider.

 

[Melnibonean]

Weird seems to echo what I have said

These are my facts and you can't have them. Go create your own facts like some others here do and post them up.

you are soooooooooo wrong man. Im doing this for the kid that thinks a sig 226, walther ppq or beretta are good for 3 gun. Do not buy these guns for 3 gun, buy a cz or glock to start, marauder in 9mm or infinity if you got the cash flow. Those are terrible 3 gun handguns, absolutey terrible guns. The sig has an 11 pound double action, the beretta a 9, and the ppq has a good trigger but no extended mags, aftermarket parts, height over bore is horrendous, this is not a bond film.
If you dont think that running as fast as you can and shooting accurately is not combat effective, you need to send me some of that Canadian kush bro. Theres alot more pts on this site than previously thought. Im out good night, have fun with your eotechs, maybe this thread has gotten so stupid that no sane person will be willing to read thru this and that will at least keep them from buying an eotech. ps i secretly want an eotech in fde, im just in the closet about it.

My CZ is a SP01 Shadow and is picky to COAL and has a history of shearing off slide stops, so I don't reach for it as my 1st choice. YMMV

You may not know this, but Glocks are not made for precision work; they're duty guns made to go "bang" every time. Accuracy isn't their forte.

If 3Gun is a great analog for real combat, then why - in the name of God and all that is holy - would you be so ignorant as to recommend an Infinity? If you think an Infinity could possibly be practical (or even functional) in the field, you've discredited yourself. Try taking one down in the field without the special tool, or an approximation of one, or see how it functions without it being lubed up so much that it attracts dirt from the neighboring zip code to come over and gum it up.

Infinity as a stand in for a combat gun......

anyone else get the feeling 0.5 is some kid that just got their PAL?

Dude, I don't know you or if you've ever served, but you do realize that actual shooting is a small part of the skills and knowledge base required in an inf setting.
Being able to put 5 rounds into a <1inch group comes way way way after:
patrolling skills
fire and movement
FIBUA
17 steps to battle procedure
Nato standardized orders format for patrols, defence etc
radio voice procedure
laundry day
paying your chit at the canteen truck
archie comics
getting your dress uniform cleaned for the regt bday
etc etc

go tell guys that have just finished their 2 x10s that their marksmanship is inferior and see how many give a f.

Very well said.

 

[cr5]

please note: This is CANADIAN GUN NUTS NOT US GUN NUTS so I could care less what they do. I personally only know 2 guys in the us sf community, in canada lots and again I have asked a few guy who I talking to regularly about this issue and they are aware that it does exist however everything is deliberate so you go to the artic you zero. Next week your In south America zero again. Different elevation, barometric pressure, etc etc etc.

So i could see if you were flying around from environment to environment all willy nilly how that would create a problem but professionals are professional for a resonance so the notion that your going to experience a major shift in the optic with out doing your proper SOPS is all verbal diarrhea to me

Out to you

This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier.

No military group is going to zero their rifles in the Arctic then fly directly to Afghanistan and jump out of a helicopter for a mission without checking their equipment and verifying zero.
The POI shift may occur with extreme temperature change but when is anyone ever going to experience that without a chance to zero their sights before using their firearm?
As a civilian I say never and even if you do, no one is shooting back at you so who cares. A couple clicks and it's back in the middle of the paper.
I can experience the same POI shift if I change ammo, shoot cold bore then let a round sit in the chamber after 20 previous rounds have warmed up the chamber, remove the sight and then reinstall it, load with the same powder but from a different lot. Nothing is so perfect that there is no POI shift for years.

I vote for a thread closure. This is getting stupid and no new information is going to change anything.

 

[RobertMcC]

3 gun load out

Combat Infantry Issued layout. Like to see a 3 gunner use issued gear and then see how great you are.

 

[Sinasta]

This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier.

No military group is going to zero their rifles in the Arctic then fly directly to Afghanistan and jump out of a helicopter for a mission without checking their equipment and verifying zero.
The POI shift may occur with extreme temperature change but when is anyone ever going to experience that without a chance to zero their sights before using their firearm?
As a civilian I say never and even if you do, no one is shooting back at you so who cares. A couple clicks and it's back in the middle of the paper.
I can experience the same POI shift if I change ammo, shoot cold bore then let a round sit in the chamber after 20 previous rounds have warmed up the chamber, remove the sight and then reinstall it, load with he same powder but from a different lot. Nothing is so perfect that there is no POI shift for years.
I vote for a thread closure. This is getting stupid and no new information is going to change anything.

How about a police officer who zeros their carbine then stores it in the trunk of the car where the temp goes much higher than +50.

The SOUM is not taking the eotech from -40 and then directly to +. It is a zero shift that occurs at those temperatures.

 

[enefgee]

3 gun load out

Combat Infantry Issued layout. Like to see a 3 gunner use issued gear and then see how great you are.

So you're saying that driving to a 3 gun match in a late model truck, with tuned gear, comfy clothes, nice shoes, ear pro and safety rules, is not the equivalent of riding in a dark metal box that's trying to beat you to death (feel free to sub in helo that pulls 2 negative G's on final forcing you to brace so you don't hit the roof) carrying 60 kilos of kit, with 'one size fits none' weaponry into a cloud of dust where people from the stone age are going to try to end your existence? Who'd a thunk it.

 

[Jamie]

3 gun load out

Combat Infantry Issued layout. Like to see a 3 gunner use issued gear and then see how great you are.

OK OK give the soilder the 3gun gear he won't beat the 3 gunner sorry to burst your bubble buds when it comes to shooting the shooter wins

 

[Trinimon]

 

[Jerry Champagne]

So you're saying that driving to a 3 gun match in a late model truck, with tuned gear, comfy clothes, nice shoes, ear pro and safety rules, is not the equivalent of riding in a dark metal box that's trying to beat you to death (feel free to sub in helo that pulls 2 negative G's on final forcing you to brace so you don't hit the roof) carrying 60 kilos of kit, with 'one size fits none' weaponry into a cloud of dust where people from the stone age are going to try to end your existence? Who'd a thunk it.

Robert

Nice gear man! Thanks for chiming in and sharing some pics.

Thanks gents for injecting some more logic into the thread... some times I get all fired up when the CF bashing begins...

At the end of the day it's about using what works for you. If an eotech Works for you run it or if an aimpoint is your thing run that, now a days theirs lots of options for quality optics. I came up running eotechs so I'll continue to run mine.

Cheers gents
Jerry

 

[Trinimon]

Robert

Nice gear man! Thanks for chiming in and sharing some pics.

Thanks gents for injecting some more logic into the thread... some times I get all fired up when the CF bashing begins...

At the end of the day it's about using what works for you. If an eotech Works for you run it or if an aimpoint is your thing run that, now a days theirs lots of options for quality optics. I came up running eotechs so I'll continue to run mine.

Cheers gents
Jerry

Well said. Hats off to you and your mates and a big thank you for your service.

 

[RobertMcC]

What got me fired up. You cannot compare 3 gun sport shooting with military. Its totally different, the gear, guns, tactics. To claim your better then some of our best, is the biggest LOL ever. So .5 your better then delta then?

I shot service rifle, 3 gun, IPSC and when it comes to sport its different. Id pay to see 3 gunners using issued gear. Then try and keep the title of better.

 

[RobertMcC]

OK OK give the soilder the 3gun gear he won't beat the 3 gunner sorry to burst your bubble buds when it comes to shooting the shooter wins

So Im suppose to applaud the high horse 3 gunner because he claims to be better then CSOR. Tell the shooter to put on the same gear and I don't think the outcome will be the same. The shooter will blame the kit, or the gear. Not the muscle memory guys that used to the gear.

 

[enefgee]

What got me fired up. You cannot compare 3 gun sport shooting with military. Its totally different, the gear, guns, tactics. To claim your better then some of our best, is the biggest LOL ever. So .5 your better then delta then?

I shot service rifle, 3 gun, IPSC and when it comes to sport its different. Id pay to see 3 gunners using issued gear. Then try and keep the title of better.

I forgot a few things, in my rush to sarcasm - there's also months of fear, confusion, boredom, sensory overload, physical exhaustion, sleep deprivation and sh*t food for weeks on end (guess which description that goes with). War is much easier when you watch someone else do it on Youtube.

(as a note - I have not ever been to war, but I have been privileged to listen to soldiers from WW1, the inter-war colonial period, WW2, Korea, Malaya, Viet Nam, Gulf 1, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq - the key part is to listen, not just hear.)

 

[mikethebike]

I think the problem is that we're comparing things that cannot be compated
Its like comparing a Paris Dakar rally driver to an ice road truck driver

just cannot be done, different requirements, different goals, different results, different rules

Its like one guy is saying, hey the eagle flies better than a penguin
Then one says hey the penguin swims better than the eagle

Us civilians that can only use our AR15 on a range during a comp we only know that.
Military who use their forced issued kit in Afghanistan well they know that.

But to discredit one or the other because they arent tough enough is silly.

Would you ever tell a marathon runner he's not tough, or an ironman athlete, just because they are not military? Thats just plain ignorance.

My father ran 12 marathons in his life, and Im currently training for one 6 months away from now. The level of pain is quite something

 

[RobertMcC]

I forgot a few things, in my rush to sarcasm - there's also months of fear, confusion, boredom, sensory overload, physical exhaustion, sleep deprivation and sh*t food for weeks on end (guess which description that goes with). War is much easier when you watch someone else do it on Youtube.

(as a note - I have not ever been to war, but I have been privileged to listen to soldiers from WW1, the inter-war colonial period, WW2, Korea, Malaya, Viet Nam, Gulf 1, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq - the key part is to listen, not just hear.)

Yeah. Where a Sport shooter will blame he didn't get his high oxygen colonic herbal massage with green tea the night before a match. That why he wasn't doing the best. Or his sights were off a 1/4 thou of a inch. List goes on and on and on. I heard it all.

 

[vanderkalin]

I don't put people on ignore often but 0.5moa earned it hard.

Jerry Champagne, you and your laddies kick that 3-gun warriors' ass, please

I'm not sure why you'd put him on ignore. He may be an arrogant blowhard who's probably gonna learn an expensive lesson, but at least he's willing to put up instead of shut up. I'll wait to see the reaction if he loses to put him on ignore.

 

[GunsNotPuns]

I'm not sure why you'd put him on ignore. He may be an arrogant blowhard who's probably gonna learn an expensive lesson, but at least he's willing to put up instead of shut up. I'll wait to see the reaction if he loses to put him on ignore.

Whether he puts up or not is irrelevant to me. Life is too short to put up with that kind of dumb. I get paid to put up with it at work, not my free time.

 

[Gunnerlove]

Sadly "Good enough" is often the goal in large organizations.

This applies to skills, equipment and performance and is a built in excuse for proud mediocrity.