While i support a universal gun ownership and the right to carry and own firearms for self protection, i think that if europeans look up to us and say if canadians can carry guns safely then why can't we? this petition will make more sense, the same way we look up to americans for their second amendment. but most europeans are against gun ownership.
Council of the European Union
- Thread starter Mr Wolverine
- Start date
While i support a universal gun ownership and the right to carry and own firearms for self protection, i think that if europeans look up to us and say if canadians can carry guns safely then why can't we? this petition will make more sense, the same way we look up to americans for their second amendment. but most europeans are against gun ownership.
Grumpy Wolverine
Regular
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- Look over your shoulder
Very few of the Europeans I know are against fire arms ownership and before you say how many Europeans do I know, let me say lots.
So since you're so bent on putting your noses and names in other people's business, here's some more petitions that you missed:
Petition No 0911/2014 by Michal Franc (Czech) on Ban on Personal weaponry regulation by the EU.
Petition 2379/2013 by Jan Zamecnik (Czech), on Ban on personal weaponry regulation by the EU.
Petition 2103/2013, by Michael Wolfgang Mayerl (Austrian) on restrictions imposed by the Austrian authorities on the export of ammunition and weapons components and gun sights.
There's lots of funny ones that could use your support, too:
Petition 2728/2013 by Lebin Ding, (Chinese) on the persecution of Falun Gong adherents in China, removal of their organs without their consent and support for the relevant EU resolution.
Petition 2662/2013, by B. E. (German) on noise pollution affecting farm animals.
Petition 2559/2013 by Beata Łoskot (Polish) on the ban on ritual slaughter.
Petition 2439/2013 by S.P. (Austrian), on the involuntary hospitalisation and confinement of psychiatric patients in Europe and the inhumane way they are treated.
Petition 2391/2013, by C.J. (Dutch), on a ban on birdcages containing zinc.
Petition 2355/2013 by Marie-Claire Bero (Belgian), on an EU-wide ban on night-time flight operations in order to protect EU citizens from atmospheric- and noise-pollution.
Petition 2128/2013 by Eva Johansson (Swedish) on the situation of stray animals in the European Union and the problem of children witnessing the ill-treatment of stray animals.
And for the really important stuff:
Petition 2065/2013 by G. F. (German) on the correct use of wine designations on the labels of wine bottles.
If you hadn't caught it... that was mostly sarcasm. Sorry people, but some of you are just beyond amazing. Not the people with citizenship in a EU member state: their signature is appropriate on a petition addressed to the EU. The rest of you.. *shake head*. Like I said, busybodies.
A show of support is never wrong, eh? I'll have to disagree with that: any support's effectiveness depends entirely on whom the support comes from, and it can be wrong, wrong, wrong for what you are trying to get. Get supported by the wrong crowd and your cause is dead in the water, sunk, lost. How useful would support for the freedom to own firearms be, coming from skinheads, nazis, racists, radicals or people with known psychological problems, criminal convictions or links to the firearms industry? Should liberals go show support of their fiscal policies right outside a CPC convention? What about "Hell's Angels Support The Freedom To Own Full Auto Concealed Carry Firearms, Yeah!"? A show of support can be inappropriate indeed.
Put yourself in the petition's receiver's shoes for a second. "Oh, thank you for this petition with names that aren't even from EU citizen. What do you want me to do with that, again?".
Show support, by all means. But know where and when it's appropriate, is what I'm saying. If you're not Canadian, don't sign Canadian petitions. If you're not an EU citizen, stay off the EU petitions. It's not rocket science, you know.
Petition No 0911/2014 by Michal Franc (Czech) on Ban on Personal weaponry regulation by the EU.
Petition 2379/2013 by Jan Zamecnik (Czech), on Ban on personal weaponry regulation by the EU.
Petition 2103/2013, by Michael Wolfgang Mayerl (Austrian) on restrictions imposed by the Austrian authorities on the export of ammunition and weapons components and gun sights.
There's lots of funny ones that could use your support, too:
Petition 2728/2013 by Lebin Ding, (Chinese) on the persecution of Falun Gong adherents in China, removal of their organs without their consent and support for the relevant EU resolution.
Petition 2662/2013, by B. E. (German) on noise pollution affecting farm animals.
Petition 2559/2013 by Beata Łoskot (Polish) on the ban on ritual slaughter.
Petition 2439/2013 by S.P. (Austrian), on the involuntary hospitalisation and confinement of psychiatric patients in Europe and the inhumane way they are treated.
Petition 2391/2013, by C.J. (Dutch), on a ban on birdcages containing zinc.
Petition 2355/2013 by Marie-Claire Bero (Belgian), on an EU-wide ban on night-time flight operations in order to protect EU citizens from atmospheric- and noise-pollution.
Petition 2128/2013 by Eva Johansson (Swedish) on the situation of stray animals in the European Union and the problem of children witnessing the ill-treatment of stray animals.
And for the really important stuff:
Petition 2065/2013 by G. F. (German) on the correct use of wine designations on the labels of wine bottles.
If you hadn't caught it... that was mostly sarcasm. Sorry people, but some of you are just beyond amazing. Not the people with citizenship in a EU member state: their signature is appropriate on a petition addressed to the EU. The rest of you.. *shake head*. Like I said, busybodies.
A show of support is never wrong, eh? I'll have to disagree with that: any support's effectiveness depends entirely on whom the support comes from, and it can be wrong, wrong, wrong for what you are trying to get. Get supported by the wrong crowd and your cause is dead in the water, sunk, lost. How useful would support for the freedom to own firearms be, coming from skinheads, nazis, racists, radicals or people with known psychological problems, criminal convictions or links to the firearms industry? Should liberals go show support of their fiscal policies right outside a CPC convention? What about "Hell's Angels Support The Freedom To Own Full Auto Concealed Carry Firearms, Yeah!"? A show of support can be inappropriate indeed.
Put yourself in the petition's receiver's shoes for a second. "Oh, thank you for this petition with names that aren't even from EU citizen. What do you want me to do with that, again?".
Show support, by all means. But know where and when it's appropriate, is what I'm saying. If you're not Canadian, don't sign Canadian petitions. If you're not an EU citizen, stay off the EU petitions. It's not rocket science, you know.
Grumpy Wolverine
Regular
- Location
- Look over your shoulder
You are completely right, how could the rest of us be so blind and small minded......
Blind and small minded? By no means!
It's a compassionate and wide-ranging open mind that has the vision and the belief that it is good and necessary to strive to use its wisdom to gain influence on people and governments in far countries so that they can be gently guided toward their own good!
Hmmm... Reminds me of the UN, actually... or of the early Communists, at that... *wince*
Seriously, Grumpy: no, I don't believe you're small minded or blind at all. I believe everyone that signed has good intentions and all that. I just also believe while it's at best harmless, it's still inappropriate for us to sign and at worse potentially harmful for the petition to have those non-EU names on it. I'm not the guardian of morals, though, everyone go right ahead and play as you want!
It's a compassionate and wide-ranging open mind that has the vision and the belief that it is good and necessary to strive to use its wisdom to gain influence on people and governments in far countries so that they can be gently guided toward their own good!
Hmmm... Reminds me of the UN, actually... or of the early Communists, at that... *wince*
Seriously, Grumpy: no, I don't believe you're small minded or blind at all. I believe everyone that signed has good intentions and all that. I just also believe while it's at best harmless, it's still inappropriate for us to sign and at worse potentially harmful for the petition to have those non-EU names on it. I'm not the guardian of morals, though, everyone go right ahead and play as you want!
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- Location
- Southern Ontario
What kind of inference is this?, for the typical feedback you've read from the folks here on this forum? What kind of leap of logic leads you to believe that the kinds of people you've listed are going to be joining this petition? Is this how you'd generalize your fellow CGN'ers here? Holy crap. And then you place "links to the firearms industry" right behind psych problems and criminal convictions?? You're instantly demonizing the businesses that produce the implements we use to enjoy these particular hobbies. Thanks for your support.
One other question. If it's so inappropriate. wouldn't you think the EU Comission themselves would tailor their petition website to prevent non-EU participation? Yet the online form itself on the actual EU website, has the provision for selecting your nationality, and voila, it has a drop-down menu for selecting "other" as your country, as in, other than EU countries. Another feedback form on their site I saw even had all the other individual countires on Earth listed to pick from in the drop down menu. I myself don't know the strategy behind offering that level of participation, but there it is. Why would that be, if they didn't want to hear from outsiders so to speak?
Grumpy Wolverine
Regular
- Location
- Look over your shoulder
Very well said!
It should be noted that the message that Mr. Wolverine posted in the start of the thread was at the request from Brugger & Thomet, asking for help from us and we have had similar requests from other European makers, so it seems to me that our help does matter and is required and has been asked for.
aakoksal
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- YYC, Alberta
In every community, there will be those that oppose just because they can... So be it...
Sigh, Monty, you understand the concept of "analogy", surely? As in using an example that is similar, but not quite the same, to support or demonstrate a concept that one is talking about? The one, single point I made in this thread is about Canadians singing petitions addressed to a non-Canadian government being inappropriate. Grumpy answered that "a show of support is never wrong" and I said "not so, it all depends on whom the support comes from", with examples. Get off your horse, it was analogy, not inference. Though, how do you know the Hell's Angels don't support full auto concealed carry, anyhow?
As to the question on website restrictions to prevent non-EU participation: how much do you know about internet proxies and firewalls? I can make my IP look like it comes from Romania, no problem. That's why they don't bother with that kind of restriction. Not only that, but you want to allow participation by out-of-country EU citizens, yes? You can make a login using a unique identifier issued by the EU, but then you have a privacy concern about linking the identifier and the person using it across multiple gov't applications (think our own Social Insurance Number and why you have to protect it).
I'd love to know the strategy behind offering that level of participation, as you said. Being a cynical bastard, I'd say it amounts to "make them feel good", but who knows?
Grumpy, you make a better argument there, though I call "conflict of interest" when "a Swiss defence supplier specializing in the design and manufacturing of firearms and tactical components such as sound suppressors and rail systems" calls on citizen of other countries to support a petition about gun control made to the EU governing body. A little bit like (spoiler: analogy coming!) it would be if we had Colt Canada call on Europeans to sign a Canadian petition to re-classify the AR platform as non-restricted in Canada.
As I said earlier, knock yourselves out. *shrug*
Grumpy Wolverine
Regular
- Location
- Look over your shoulder
Sound suppressors are already legal and encouraged in the majority of European countries FOR CIVILIAN USE.
I guess it would have been much better if the request had come from Purdy's of London or perhaps Fausti shotguns, as obviously they have no conflict of interest as they only make guns for the civilian side of things. Conflict of interest, hardly unless you can say that wanting to make sure you lively hood and your business and your sport stays around.
As I should have said earlier, show yourself out, there are lots of public forms to be negative in. This is ending up as another thread that will have to be locked due to the negative attitudes and outlooks of a few individuals. We don't deserve to have any changes in our laws or rights in this country, as even after all these years since C-68 we can't stand behind one another or show support for someone else who shares our interests, regardless of where they are. Something tells me if this was a petition for a specific province you would be arguing the rest of us have no right to sign it either.
I guess it would have been much better if the request had come from Purdy's of London or perhaps Fausti shotguns, as obviously they have no conflict of interest as they only make guns for the civilian side of things. Conflict of interest, hardly unless you can say that wanting to make sure you lively hood and your business and your sport stays around.
As I should have said earlier, show yourself out, there are lots of public forms to be negative in. This is ending up as another thread that will have to be locked due to the negative attitudes and outlooks of a few individuals. We don't deserve to have any changes in our laws or rights in this country, as even after all these years since C-68 we can't stand behind one another or show support for someone else who shares our interests, regardless of where they are. Something tells me if this was a petition for a specific province you would be arguing the rest of us have no right to sign it either.
*shakes head* Well, at least you didn't call me a Liberal.
But you're right, we're not getting anywhere fast.
You don't see it as inappropriate to sign petitions about governance to a government not your own and you don't see a conflict of interest in a firearm maker asking people, through their overseas business associates, to "buff up" the signature numbers on a petition against gun control. All riiiighty. Ok.
No need to lock the thread, let other CGNers have a chance to express their support. I'm off.
Have a good time Grumpy, thanks for the debate.
But you're right, we're not getting anywhere fast.
You don't see it as inappropriate to sign petitions about governance to a government not your own and you don't see a conflict of interest in a firearm maker asking people, through their overseas business associates, to "buff up" the signature numbers on a petition against gun control. All riiiighty. Ok.
No need to lock the thread, let other CGNers have a chance to express their support. I'm off.
Have a good time Grumpy, thanks for the debate.
Youngfreshtoodeath
Regular
- Location
- Safe Harbour, BC
My mother used to work with change. She only seen a petition work once. That was for a drinking fountain or something.
MACH
Member
- Location
- Brantford Ontario
I feel like it is important to mention that ISIS supports gun control. They recently put out an edict stating that anyone who wasn't with them in their territory would be denied the right to bear arms. Real great company the left associates itself with.
As the saying goes, if you want to learn the true nature of a man, you need only look at the company he keeps.
As the saying goes, if you want to learn the true nature of a man, you need only look at the company he keeps.
While attributing it to Churchill may be an urban legend:
I'd like to know whether he said this when he sat as a Liberal, or Conservative, MP.Winston Churchill said:
Doesn't surprise me at all that the European Union petition is being started in the Czech. I would have thought though that it would be more on the plate of the strana Svobodnych Obcanu (free citizens party), which would almost equate to our Libertarian party. For the older Czechs, Petr Mach is a little too right wing and a little too charismatic - but he does sit on the European Council. I've made an account, signed the EU petition, and have written Mr. Mach about it as well. I'll see who I can contact in our local region in the CZ, I know a few people in the municipal governments so going for a drink someone who sits on the European Council may not be so far fetched. While the CZ has some of the most liberal (in the proper use of the term) gun laws, the parties in charge are overly Liberal - even to where the KSCM (Communist party of the Czech and Moriva) have a larger support base than more of the right sided parties (OSD, KSU, TOP09). I can't even imagine starting such a venture in France, the UK, Spain, or Romania where dreaming about a firearm without a license is prohibited.
The recent Anschutz MSR sale seems to reflect some of the concerns European manufacturers are having to some of the proposed laws. Thankfully some European firms (CZ and B&T come to mind) have commented against the political movement to restrict the lawful actions of lawful citizens.
Then there is #### like this:
http://europeanpost.co/800-pump-act...te-italy-and-directed-to-belgium-from-turkey/
or with a tiny bit more propaganda:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/26/uk-italy-crime-shotguns-belgium-idUKKBN0TF1SG20151126
(specifically: "Pump-action Winchester SXP rifles are made for hunting and are not considered assault weapons", then some fear mongering using the companies' own marketing "the shotguns seized are the fastest pump-action rifles in the market, capable of delivering three shots in half a second" ... and bring it home with some fear: "The Islamist militants who killed 130 people in the French capital mainly used Kalashnikov assault rifles, or AK-47s."
Last thing (we) want is for there to be such stringent rules and regulations placed on European manufacturers that the products we love will perish because the firms producing them will either 1) go out of business due to regulation and drop in market demand in that area, 2) move production to areas where quality controls may not reflect what we expect from that firm, 3) substantially go up in price, or 4) simply not be available.
In any case, I encourage anyone with European heritage to speak up, whether this is signing a petition or contacting a governmental representative where one's family originates from.
