ACR questions

[Brian46]

I want OEM

 

[ATRS Shaun]

Had an XCR-L keymod, sold it after having my Herron Arms ACR with a Bartlien barrel with a .223wylde chamber. It shoots like a lazer and handle like a dream even though it is noticeably heavier in the front.

I have a MV coming, but I honestly think that dollar for dollar the ACR is hands down the nicer rig. The reasons for me thinking this are as follows:
1) ACR is a proven design, and has a papertrail to prove it. Its got accuracy reports all over, and has time proof that they run reliably, meanwhile the MV is a scaled down version of a platform that borrows the mechanical design features from the proven AR platform. However, just because it uses the same basic principles as an AR platform, doesn't mean it is sure to be as accurate or reliable as an AR platform as we have seen with acuasations made about the MH. The MH is nice, I like mine, dont have enough time on it to comment on accuracy as I have been battling scope issues (a new scope might be in need) and I have not had any issues with reliability, but have read negative reports on both (still doesnt dash my hopes but the fact is the platform is still very new!).

2) ACR has quick barrel change which aids in quick caliber change. At this time you wont even be allowed to think about caliber changes in the MV if Rick had his way, and he isn't interested in offering anything other then .223wylde in it.

3) ACR has trigger upgrades. You are not stuck with a factory 3lb Timney single stage like the MV.

4) ACR's now are not that heavy if your careful of barrel selection and the new CL-1 handguard by Nexxus Tactical is making them even lighter, to the point I bet it will be the same if not lighter then the MV.

5) Storage/Transport size. The ACR stock folds, leaving it around 28" and barrel barrel can be removed making the longest piece the barrel at around 20" with the muzzle device if you wanted to break it down shorter.

To me all things considered, the ACR is the clear winner if you can get one at AEI's sale price. Just know that the tri-rail enhanced handgaurd is going to be the wedge that makes you hate it. After you swap it you should be more than thrilled.

I couldn't help but chime in, as I very nearly bought an ACR to do the non-restricted conversion. I previously owned a XCR-L with heavy barrel and quad rail, it was heavy and mine couldn't hit better than about minute-of-gopher. I bought it because, at the time, it was the closest thing to a non restricted AR15 one could get. I sold it and was looking very closely at the ACR. The thing that turned me off from the ACR however simple it seems, is the non-interchangeable pistol grip. Then the Modern Hunter was announced, and I went that route, and then began working here.

1) The ACR is a proven design, absolutely. The direct impingement gas operating system is proven as well.

2) The ACR has a quick barrel change, but Bushmaster to the last of my knowledge wasn't producing any caliber conversions, so you are looking at after market (frankly that's better anyway) and having it custom made. ATRS is not offering caliber conversions currently (I'm sticking with the never-say-never mentality on that, I still have hope). End result, neither rifle has a factory caliber conversion as of this moment.

3) The ACR comes with a factory trigger. There is one upgrade available to make it a match grade trigger, a Geissele. The Modern Varmint comes standard with a Match Grade Timney 3lb single stage trigger. The word factory, does not apply.

4) I don't know what the weight on the lightest ACR is with an 18.6"+ barrel is, but with the piston system I suspect it would be a little bit more than the Varmint, but down in that 6.5lb range, we're getting pretty particular between the two for weight.

5) The ACR stock folds, but the only stocks available to my knowledge are the bushmaster fixed or folding. Beneficial, but also a disadvantage.

To me anyway, with the non-interchangeable grip, the polymer lower, proprietary stocks, proprietary piston system + gas block, proprietary barrel mounting system, and proprietary handguard, when you look at them from that perspective, it's harder to call a clear winner. Right now the ACR without the trigger upgrade, is less than the Modern Varmint. Add the trigger upgrade, and it's $50 more. Hardly a deal breaker either way, and both will shoot fantastic groups.

 

[flipincanadian]

Yup, that would run you around $700CDN, or, the cost of a barrel conversion + $100

I'll be running one of these thanks, $75 landed, and yes the guys on the ACR form have tested with 200+ round dumps and they haven't melted:

Is that with the stock 16" barrel or an aftermarket 18.6?

I'm guessing its the stock barrel but either way it looks great.

 

[cr5]

Good to hear that Armseast use an M4 type profile barrel. That would keep the weight decent. Regardless it is a heavier rifle due to the large ratchet handle.

I'm guessing you've never actually handled an ACR. The "large ratchet handle" is simply a single loop of spring wire. It weighs very little by itself and if you really wanted to you could install the barrel and remove the handle.

I couldn't help but chime in, as I very nearly bought an ACR to do the non-restricted conversion. I previously owned a XCR-L with heavy barrel and quad rail, it was heavy and mine couldn't hit better than about minute-of-gopher. I bought it because, at the time, it was the closest thing to a non restricted AR15 one could get. I sold it and was looking very closely at the ACR. The thing that turned me off from the ACR however simple it seems, is the non-interchangeable pistol grip. Then the Modern Hunter was announced, and I went that route, and then began working here.

1) The ACR is a proven design, absolutely. The direct impingement gas operating system is proven as well.

3) The ACR comes with a factory trigger. There is one upgrade available to make it a match grade trigger, a Geissele. The Modern Varmint comes standard with a Match Grade Timney 3lb single stage trigger. The word factory, does not apply.


To me anyway, with the non-interchangeable grip, the polymer lower, proprietary stocks, proprietary piston system + gas block, proprietary barrel mounting system, and proprietary handguard, when you look at them from that perspective, it's harder to call a clear winner. Right now the ACR without the trigger upgrade, is less than the Modern Varmint. Add the trigger upgrade, and it's $50 more. Hardly a deal breaker either way, and both will shoot fantastic groups.

I'm not sure why changing the pistol grip is so important to some people. It comes with a grip identical to one of magpul's aftermarket grips that many people buy to "upgrade" their AR. To me it's comfortable and while I prefer an MOE+ I have no issues at all with the grip on my ACR.

The ACR will take any AR trigger if you bend one spring, if you go into the ACR sticky you will see one of our fellow nutters recently installed his own favorite aftermarket trigger and it functions perfectly.

So far, unless the MV performs better than the three MH's I've spent a little time with I'll take the ACR over the MV every time. I like the MH but as was said before by another owner of one in this thread I expected them to be more reliable and also to shoot a little better with more types of ammo. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't expecting 1 moa with surplus FMJ but I've shot at least ten different brands of factory ammo through them and one guy had some handloads (not very well developed mind you) and none of them were consistently at or under 1 moa. I would like to try again with some FGGM or to have a MH in my collection long enough to develop a load for it, I'm sure it can do better than what I've seen but I expected more. Also the reliability was simply mediocre and two of them were having feeding issues wih 150gr FMJ which should feed in any 308 semi.

Hard to argue the rest of your points though. I'm hoping to get some time on a MV to see how it compares to my NR ACR with it's Questar stainless barrel with Wylde chamber.

 

[Brian46]

2) The ACR has a quick barrel change, but Bushmaster to the last of my knowledge wasn't producing any caliber conversions, so you are looking at after market (frankly that's better anyway) and having it custom made. ATRS is not offering caliber conversions currently (I'm sticking with the never-say-never mentality on that, I still have hope). End result, neither rifle has a factory caliber conversion as of this moment.

At least there is an aftermarket for the conversions on the ACR, For the MV it looks like the manufacturer is even dead set against anyone in the aftermarket doing it by what has been posted so far.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1233852-Modern-VARMINTER

4) I don't know what the weight on the lightest ACR is with an 18.6"+ barrel is, but with the piston system I suspect it would be a little bit more than the Varmint, but down in that 6.5lb range, we're getting pretty particular between the two for weight.

I was quoted 7lbs as being the lightest MV in another thread, which is still light, but starting price is $3500 and likely $4000 plus taxes after options making it roughly $500-1000 more than a new converted to NR ACR.

If we could get a 6-7lb max weight semi auto in 450 bushmaster and/or Remington 30AR at the same price point as an ACR with accuracy and reliability on par, you would have the new best thing in a Canadian big game hunting rifle. Any manufacturer that makes such a NR rifle will be guaranteed to sell a lot of rifles. I know my 450 ACR has spurred a lot of interest and purchases from hunters who would have never considered such a rifle for hunting before

 

[onetwentyish]

I couldn't help but chime in, as I very nearly bought an ACR to do the non-restricted conversion. I previously owned a XCR-L with heavy barrel and quad rail, it was heavy and mine couldn't hit better than about minute-of-gopher. I bought it because, at the time, it was the closest thing to a non restricted AR15 one could get. I sold it and was looking very closely at the ACR. The thing that turned me off from the ACR however simple it seems, is the non-interchangeable pistol grip. Then the Modern Hunter was announced, and I went that route, and then began working here.

1) The ACR is a proven design, absolutely. The direct impingement gas operating system is proven as well.

2) The ACR has a quick barrel change, but Bushmaster to the last of my knowledge wasn't producing any caliber conversions, so you are looking at after market (frankly that's better anyway) and having it custom made. ATRS is not offering caliber conversions currently (I'm sticking with the never-say-never mentality on that, I still have hope). End result, neither rifle has a factory caliber conversion as of this moment.

3) The ACR comes with a factory trigger. There is one upgrade available to make it a match grade trigger, a Geissele. The Modern Varmint comes standard with a Match Grade Timney 3lb single stage trigger. The word factory, does not apply.

4) I don't know what the weight on the lightest ACR is with an 18.6"+ barrel is, but with the piston system I suspect it would be a little bit more than the Varmint, but down in that 6.5lb range, we're getting pretty particular between the two for weight.

5) The ACR stock folds, but the only stocks available to my knowledge are the bushmaster fixed or folding. Beneficial, but also a disadvantage.

To me anyway, with the non-interchangeable grip, the polymer lower, proprietary stocks, proprietary piston system + gas block, proprietary barrel mounting system, and proprietary handguard, when you look at them from that perspective, it's harder to call a clear winner. Right now the ACR without the trigger upgrade, is less than the Modern Varmint. Add the trigger upgrade, and it's $50 more. Hardly a deal breaker either way, and both will shoot fantastic groups.

1) no doubt, I am just concerned about the aspects that differ it from the AR and make it proprietary. Minor difference as the seem, they are not yet proven concepts.

2) the fact that the ACR actually can have caliber conversions and quick caliber changes at that should be a huge selling point. ACR's come into this country restricted, that doesn't stop barrel conversions, so caliber converaions are no real different. I know that ther have been .300blk, 6.8spc, .450 Bushmaster, and 7.62x39 conversions in addition to the stock 5.56 caliber in Canada. This is important to me as I have plans to do a .300blk barrel to a company my 5.56 bolt, and I also plan to do a 7.62x39 kit to accompany the .50 Beowulf kit I hope to do some day since they share the same bolt. 2 bolts and 4 calibers from varmint to space bear defense I would have my bases covered... lol

3) as cr5 mentioned, any AR trigger can be moded to fit the ACR.

4) weight is very much so a non-issue with either if you make good barrel and handgaurd choices.

5) look at Nexxus Tactical, they have made the ACR's lightest handguard and also have begun making AR stock adapters.

6) There is also new aluminum lowers for the ACR in the works by aftermarket entities, and they feature interchangeable grips, like the Remington ACR.

It looks to me like the ACR and MV will have the same amount of proprietary parts, shoot about the same, weigh about the same, but the ACR leads with caliber conversions, and proven reliability, and best initial purchase price as well as I am willing to bet the best comparable fully modded set up price.

The only reason I am getting a MV is I have always wanted an AR and everytime I get close to building one I loose interest when I remember its range only and I live on a farm. That combined with the fact that I have its older brother, I kinda have to have it's matching serialed little brother.

 

[onetwentyish]

At least there is an aftermarket for the conversions on the ACR, For the MV it looks like the manufacturer is even dead set against anyone in the aftermarket doing it by what has been posted so far.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1233852-Modern-VARMINTER

I was quoted 7lbs as being the lightest MV in another thread, which is still light, but starting price is $3500 and likely $4000 plus taxes after options making it roughly $500-1000 more than a new converted to NR ACR.

If we could get a 6-7lb max weight semi auto in 450 bushmaster and/or Remington 30AR at the same price point as an ACR with accuracy and reliability on par, you would have the new best thing in a Canadian big game hunting rifle. Any manufacturer that makes such a NR rifle will be guaranteed to sell a lot of rifles. I know my 450 ACR has spurred a lot of interest and purchases from hunters who would have never considered such a rifle for hunting before

Dlask and Arms East have been selling new rifles already converted for just a hair over $2800 lately, me thinks that I can do alot for the difference of $900 to get a MV from factory with the similar kit the ACR comes with out of the box. (Implied parts on the MV to compare to the ACR: CTR stock, Moe+ grip, cerakote the barrel black, flash hider, ambi safety and ambi mag release.)

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

Post deleted

 

[Gundoggy]

LMT 16" piston carbine is 7.9 lbs. It has a heavy barrel.
Stock ACR with M4 profile barrel is about 8 lbs. Any NR converted barrel is going to be more than this even if you go for an m4 profile barrel. The balance is also a little more foreward on the ACR.
I have handled a few NR ACR's and the ones with 18.6" heavy barrels are really heavy. The Herron conversion with integral flashhider and M4 profile feels almost like a stock ACR but is still heavier and more tip heavy than the LMT piston gun with 16" heavier contour barrel.

I am interested to see how the Modern Varmint turns out. If it is as accurate and reliable as a similar AR15 then that would be a rifle I'd like to shoot.

 

[Gundoggy]

deleted

 

[onetwentyish]

Satisfied with ricks answer!

 

[DILLIGAF]

I just scored the last one from Redwolf Airsoft... tried to buy a couple to re-sell on the EE (optimize shipping cost) but it was the last one.

Lots of ebay sellers have these too... just search for Masada PTS long handguard and you should find some.

Got one from here. ww.scopeandlaser.com/index.php?p=6&lang=en&id=25511 noticed they were out of stock in most places, and some stores say they are discontinued. Will run the Airsoft version until I can find a real one.

 

[Brian46]

LMT 16" piston carbine is 7.9 lbs. It has a heavy barrel.
Stock ACR with M4 profile barrel is about 8 lbs. Any NR converted barrel is going to be more than this even if you go for an m4 profile barrel.

Actually, my NR 450 ACR weighs less than when it was 223, the light profile and large bore diameter are why.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

Hows about you call me please so we can further discuss this?
The interweb is not the place as it IS monitored. I deleted your post in our forum for the same reasons. Discussion on an open forum is a sure way to troll for grief.

 

[onetwentyish]

Hows about you call me please so we can further discuss this?
The interweb is not the place as it IS monitored. I deleted your post in our forum for the same reasons. Discussion on an open forum is a sure way to troll for grief.

Called in and had a great 1/2hr chat with Rick. Got a good explanation and bounced some ideas off of him for some new gear and planning to send an email full of ideas he is interested in. Might be some cool stuff comes out of this email!

But I still feel Rick needs to take the bull by the horns on this one give us the facts so there is no stiring the hornets nest unknowingly. So long as you avoid directly answering questions publicly, people will continue to ask!

 

[drifter dave]

Is that with the stock 16" barrel or an aftermarket 18.6?

I'm guessing its the stock barrel but either way it looks great.

I stole that image from the net, I think it's a 14.5" barrel, the 16.5" OEM barrel is pictured below.

Got one from here. ww.scopeandlaser.com/index.php?p=6&lang=en&id=25511 noticed they were out of stock in most places, and some stores say they are discontinued. Will run the Airsoft version until I can find a real one.

You may just end up keeping it. The match of materials isn't great, but it's longer than a OEM handguard, has little wiggle, and was cheap Ran it today and it was just fine.
I shot better groups off-hand (short range) with this setup than I did my SBR with a red dot, which I found interesting. Probably because it's a 1:9 twist (55 grain).

 

[DILLIGAF]

Might just rattle can the whole thing... lol... But I like the fact it covers up more of that long NR barrel.

 

[icedragonmx]

Not Mlok. Moe.

Thanks for the heads up on the rails!

Got one from here. ww.scopeandlaser.com/index.php?p=6&lang=en&id=25511 noticed they were out of stock in most places, and some stores say they are discontinued. Will run the Airsoft version until I can find a real one.

I went and placed an order too just in case they do discontinue it. Grabbed a few rails and extras at the same time and found what might be a cool AI style mount for a 1" scope for cheap.

 

[cr5]

Hows about you call me please so we can further discuss this?
The interweb is not the place as it IS monitored. I deleted your post in our forum for the same reasons. Discussion on an open forum is a sure way to troll for grief.

This is exactly why I refused to specifically name a certain NR rifle when comparing to a restricted rifle in another thread that in my opinion has less parts compatibility than the first rifle yet it can not be converted to non restricted even with a non restricted length barrel.
I'd hate to be the guy that does what the guy at TSE did to the Swiss Arms. I'll never forgive him and he'll never see another dime from me regardless of the rifles current status.
We need to be careful how we word things and what we say on this site. They're watching us all the time waiting for us to give them more ammo to take away our hobby.

 

[cr5]

I'm not sure why people make such a big deal about the weight of a rifle. My NR ACR is a little chunky but I've never had a problem carrying it around all day or making offhand shots with it at less than 100 yards. I will admit that given the choice I'd take my 12 inch AR over the ACR if it was an option away from the range, especially for a CQB course or something like that but the extra weight isn't that big of a deal, a few ounces isn't going to ruin my day and if you think an ACR or any of the other NR piston rifle options are too heavy you might want to try building a little muscle. Try hauling around an M305 for an afternoon then pick up the light as a feather ACR. Sure, stand there at high ready for a few min and hell ya it's heavy but why would you do that? We're talking about a difference of around one pound from one rifle to another it's not the end of the world and you do get used to it as long as you don't switch back and forth with your short barreled DI rifle.
Weight is the price we pay for a piston driven rifle with a decent contour barrel with some meat built into it. If they used more light weight polymers you'd be whining that it felt cheap and that you expected the "plastic" to break when it was cold which I've heard people say about the ACR yet I've never heard of one failure.
If you want a light weight piston rifle then you need a rifle like my AR180B-2. It's light, simple, smooth, and as accurate as an XCR-L or a Tavor. I love that rifle and I'll never sell it but nine times out of ten I'll grab my ACR first when it's time to hit the fields or the range.