SAM vs Kimber?

Mr. Friendly said:
sorry folks, I have limited experience with pistols and their magazines.

the SAM comes with a 9 round mag, which made me think that it requires something different, smaller(?) than usual?

if a 10 round mag will sit flush and not cause any problems, even better.

can someone clarify that for me? thanks.
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10 rnds magazines will not sit flush (plastic base plate will stick out); you can see how it looks with an STI magwell installed. Wilson ETM on the left, Tripp Cobra on the right; highly recommend the Tripp over the Wilson, altough I haven't seen the new version ETM.

If you are set on flush fitting 9 rounders, the factory STI have always worked perfectly for me.

I have never used Kimber mags, but they have a pretty bad reputation...

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ted_dent said:
Sunray, is that you?

If not then you have to lay off the drugs, man.
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He's quite correct, SAM guns are built using the same style of production Colt used until a few years ago. Rough parts are filed and final fitted by hand, guns move in boxes from one station to the next. The parts are 'rough machined' in house. Kimber uses a production line with a much higher level of automation and very little hand fitting. In the US machines are relatively cheap, in the Philippines, labour is relatively cheap, especially for companies that offer skills training and long term employment, it also doesn't hurt that they're making 1911's - Filipinos LOVE 1911's. Having handled a few SAMs including a stainless 9mm Commander, I'd have no issue with putting one in the safe, if a 9mm Commander was something I was looking for.

I should note that Kimber's automated production does NOT in any way, mean that any part will drop in, 1911's just don't work that way.
 
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10-round 9mm magazines are more or less analogous to 8-round .45 magazines that have a slightly longer body and a protruding baseplate. The old style flush-fitting magazines for 9mm or .38 Super normally hold 9 rounds.
 
I still have the dilemma of not knowing anyone with stock for the mecgar 9mm 1911 9 round mags.

if I have to special order them, that's fine, but if anyone knows somewhere with stock or somewhere from the US I can have direct shipped, the assistance would be greatly appreciated.
 
Then I guess all those 'hand fitted' AKs made in Pakistan are better than the machined Yugo ones.

When Colt did it it meant that virtually every hand fitted gun that came out of the factory was well made. Today it means that depending on who does the 'fitting' you might get one that is great and one that is crap. I've had 5 SAMs so I have some clue about them. Three were top notch in fit and finish (except the triggers were nothing to write home about). The last two (both higher end Thunderbolts, BTW) were garbage. One barrel had a chip out of one of the lands. Both barrels had chambers that looked like they were cut with a coarse rat tail file. The barrel link on one actually had dents in it. The extended mag well on one stuck down so far the front tip could stab your hand. One even came pre-idiot scratched (I wonder which well trained craftsman put it together?). Both slides rattled and the triggers ran around 7 pounds each. Thank God I dealt with Wolverine which took them back without a hassle.

Meanwhile I've also had 4 various models of Kimbers. None of them had these types of problems so chalk one up for automation.

They may be 'hand fitted' but they aren't anywhere near being in the same class as Kimbers. 'Hand fitting' used to mean quality. Now all it means is some guy put it together using his hands. Same words, huge difference. Some people just haven't clued in to that yet.
 
ted_dent said:
Then I guess all those 'hand fitted' AKs made in Pakistan are better than the machined Yugo ones.

When Colt did it it meant that virtually every hand fitted gun that came out of the factory was well made. Today it means that depending on who does the 'fitting' you might get one that is great and one that is crap. I've had 5 SAMs so I have some clue about them. Three were top notch in fit and finish (except the triggers were nothing to write home about). The last two (both higher end Thunderbolts, BTW) were garbage. One barrel had a chip out of one of the lands. Both barrels had chambers that looked like they were cut with a coarse rat tail file. The barrel link on one actually had dents in it. The extended mag well on one stuck down so far the front tip could stab your hand. One even came pre-idiot scratched (I wonder which well trained craftsman put it together?). Both slides rattled and the triggers ran around 7 pounds each. Thank God I dealt with Wolverine which took them back without a hassle.

Meanwhile I've also had 4 various models of Kimbers. None of them had these types of problems so chalk one up for automation.

They may be 'hand fitted' but they aren't anywhere near being in the same class as Kimbers. 'Hand fitting' used to mean quality. Now all it means is some guy put it together using his hands. Same words, huge difference. Some people just haven't clued in to that yet.
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Any time you put people in the picture, you put in human error, negligence, ignorance and flatulence. Personally, I think Kimbers look much nicer than SAM's but I won't own one, just me. I beat the crap out of my guns, so why would I care that they're perfect when new, to me they're not jewellery and I don't heavily invest myself in them. If they go bang, great, if they don't, I fix them. I shot Colts in the 1980's, when getting through 1,000 rounds meant knowing a good 'smith, kind of cured me of the name brand thing.
 
I've got a friend in Florida who will never buy a Kimber as they support(ed) gun control measures in the US at some point, which totally turned him off from them.

however, I have gotten a lead on some Mec-gar and Wilson Combat mags. likely going with the Mec-gar as they are the 9 round 9mm mag, so should fit flush while the WC are 10 round 9mm mags...and 3x the price of the Mec-gar. :p

that said, I have a question about the 10 round mags. is there an option for feet that will make them look like they're properly seated in my SAM Commander? I know there are extended feet for some guns, like the G19 which gives you more space to grip firmly and such.

thanks to everyone posting so far! :)
 
ted_dent said:
Then I guess all those 'hand fitted' AKs made in Pakistan are better than the machined Yugo ones.

When Colt did it it meant that virtually every hand fitted gun that came out of the factory was well made. Today it means that depending on who does the 'fitting' you might get one that is great and one that is crap. I've had 5 SAMs so I have some clue about them. Three were top notch in fit and finish (except the triggers were nothing to write home about). The last two (both higher end Thunderbolts, BTW) were garbage. One barrel had a chip out of one of the lands. Both barrels had chambers that looked like they were cut with a coarse rat tail file. The barrel link on one actually had dents in it. The extended mag well on one stuck down so far the front tip could stab your hand. One even came pre-idiot scratched (I wonder which well trained craftsman put it together?). Both slides rattled and the triggers ran around 7 pounds each. Thank God I dealt with Wolverine which took them back without a hassle.

Meanwhile I've also had 4 various models of Kimbers. None of them had these types of problems so chalk one up for automation.

They may be 'hand fitted' but they aren't anywhere near being in the same class as Kimbers. 'Hand fitting' used to mean quality. Now all it means is some guy put it together using his hands. Same words, huge difference. Some people just haven't clued in to that yet.
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Look, I'm just being as objective as I can. I didn't say the SAM was better, only that it was hand fit.

We've heard your rat tail file story over multiple threads already. You got a bad batch of guns from last year that are not indicative of the quality of guns that were around in 2013 when Wolverine brought them in. I own three guns from that batch (Thunderbolt, Commander and Full Size enhanced models) and they all have been absolutely perfectly put together, fit and finish wise. Never had to change out parts except for a full spring swap which is expected (Any SAM 1911 springs should be changed out for US made ones).

Since owning them I've worked at a gun shop and shot/saw many 1911's since. Nothing in Canada currently compares to the value in the time and effort put into the SAM 1911's that I have, and many of us here have as well. We're not going out on a limb to say these guns are better than $3-$4k models out there, but they certainly perform and there's enough craftsmanship in them to come close.

If I were to open up a shop in the Philippines and hire the best craftsman's from SAM to work their magic on Caspian or Norinco blanks, I would be making NightHawk or Les Baer quality firearms for absolute peanuts. They have skilled labor, and it's very cheap, hence why the cheap prices of SAM's make people think they're lower quality guns, when in fact the only factor that is not par is the quality of materials they use. They're not using the same steel Les Baer uses, but they're certainly up to the same level of hand fit and finish, and Baer's attitude of "We make 1911's like it was the 1930's".

There's something almost magical, as cliche as it sounds, when you own and use a completely hand built 1911. As far as I know, it takes two weeks, start to finish, for a 1911 to work it's way from being cut blanks to finished product at the SAM factory. Two weeks worth of hand fitting labor for under $1K? It's a steal. And since owning one, I refuse to buy any production line 1911's. My sights are set right now on a LB Premier II, only because I know it'll be the best 1911 there is to own right now.
 
Also, you'd be shocked as to what a CNC mill, and a little bit of good steel sourcing can do for Pakistani firearms manufacturers.

Cimmarron in the states has a shotgun that is made in Pakistan, but almost rivals H&H in terms of fit and finish. Again, if you're going to judge a gun by it's country of manufacture, you're missing the point of skilled laborers and lower wages that offer the highest premium products we've seen in our lifetimes. When was the last time a CNC mill revolutionized the gun industry as much as it did now? Would you not expect third world countries to be brought up to modern manufacturing techniques? They've been doing everything by hand right now, and arguably, producing pieces of crap that needed better metallurgy and manufacturing standards. Well, they've got those two now, so the bar of quality should be raised.

I can write a whole essay on this topic, but people are stubborn and will go on believing whatever they wish.
 
Buy what you want, but don't buy into the rat trap nonsense that a shooter is on the same level as premium brands. Posters continue to post subject matter like this because they're either trying to convince others, or them self that, that their bargin basement firearms are as good as premium brands. As I've posted else where there's a big difference between fitting for simple function and a tight premium firearm. To even compare a Sam as fitted on the same level,as a poster in this topic stated in another thread, that a " Sam is fitted as tight as a Les Baer"' is nonsense. To compare a Sam to any premium brand including Kimber is just plan and simply stupid uninformed nonsense.
 
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grumpyold said:
Buy what you want, but don't buy into the rat trap nonsense that a shooter is on the same level as premium brands. Posters continue to post subject matter like this because they're either trying to convince others, or them self that, that their bargin basement firearms are as good as premium brands. As I've posted else where there's a big difference between fitting for simple function and a tight premium firearm. To even compare a Sam as fitted on the same level,as a poster in this topic stated in another thread, that a " Sam is fitted as tight as a Les Baer"' is nonsense. To compare a Sam to any premium brand including Kimber is just plan and simply stupid uninformed nonsense.
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Aren't you that soggy poster who goes around threads acting like your wisdom imparts anything on your baseless claims and unfounded knowledge? Yea buddy, stay out of this discussion unless you know something, pal.
 
Conscript said:
Aren't you that soggy poster who goes around threads acting like your wisdom imparts anything on your baseless claims and unfounded knowledge? Yea buddy, stay out of this discussion unless you know something, pal.
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So tell us all what you know. Anyone who even thinks that a Sam pistol is talked about in the same discussion as any premium brands is the dumb ass. Instead of posting nonsense on web sites read a book and learn the difference in how bargin firearms and premium firearms are manufactured. Knowledge is gained through education and experience and the Internet is at best a poor source. Any time you want to have a discussion based in reality and knowledge you just let me know.
Soggy poster? I don't come here to stroke yours or anyone else's ego. I come here for frank and honest discussion. Can't take the truth,Buddy, grow a pair, PAL. Want someone to talk nice to you ,and agree with everything you say, hire a hooker.
 
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Sadly, Kimber spent a few years producing pure sh*t with a lovely shine - google is your friend - so maybe using the latest and greatest in machinery isn't the only factor in producing a solid, reliable gun. At the end of the day, to me at least, a reliable, solid gun is the first step. Like I said, they are not jewellery. Kimber is a mass producer of firearms, they are not a premium brand, they do not produce guns that would be considered 'top tier' by most knowledgeable owners. They're a long way from even being a Springfield, never mind a gun that was fitted by a master.SAM pistols are also a long way from perfection, their price reflects that, but in my experience, they are solid, reliable guns with more than adequate accuracy and no serious vices. Also not a Springfield, also not fitted by a master, but not anywhere near the cost of a Kimber.
 
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hahahaha!!! buy one of each...yep, that is usually the correct answer.

right now, I just need help on my quest for magazines for the SAM Commander I bought.

are there any mag plates/butts that make a 10 round look like it's fitting properly in a Commander, kind of like those for Glock 19's? :confused:
 
enefgee said:
Sadly, Kimber spent a few years producing pure sh*t with a lovely shine - google is your friend - so maybe using the latest and greatest in machinery isn't the only factor in producing a solid, reliable gun. At the end of the day, to me at least, a reliable, solid gun is the first step. Like I said, they are not jewellery. Kimber is a mass producer of firearms, they are not a premium brand, they do not produce guns that would be considered 'top tier' by most knowledgeable owners. They're a long way from even being a Springfield, never mind a gun that was fitted by a master.SAM pistols are also a long way from perfection, their price reflects that, but in my experience, they are solid, reliable guns with more than adequate accuracy and no serious vices. Also not a Springfield, also not fitted by a master, but not anywhere near the cost of a Kimber.
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Overall I agree with you. Kimber pushed the envelop and things went sideways for a period of time. I think when your buying a Custom II your getting a good quality pistol, not great. If you spend the extra for Kimber's higher level pistol I think your getting a pistol that's seen a degree of fitting that the entry pistols don't see. Problem becomes as the price goes up you start to look at other brands that are know for their care taken in overall fit and finish. Are SAM's worth a look, of course, but let's not get carried away with exactly what your getting for your money.
 
grumpyold said:
Overall I agree with you. Kimber pushed the envelop and things went sideways for a period of time. I think when your buying a Custom II your getting a good quality pistol, not great. If you spend the extra for Kimber's higher level pistol I think your getting a pistol that's seen a degree of fitting that the entry pistols don't see. Problem becomes as the price goes up you start to look at other brands that are know for their care taken in overall fit and finish. Are SAM's worth a look, of course, but let's not get carried away with exactly what your getting for your money.
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exactly.
while i do like my SAMs and i do see the hand fitting they are not Kimbers.
my dad picked up one of those higher end Kimbers and it is TIGHT (toooit as a tiger!)
but even my Custom II is tight and by far the smoothest 1911 i have, its really hard to explain, a person needs to handle both side by side and shoot them then youd understand.
 
^^^^^^That exactly!!!
I have a SAM 4.25", a kimber and a Colt.
Two different animals to me.
SAM is nice, did the trigger, sights, grips and ambi safety. Pretty tight for hand fitted gun for $460.00 pre tax
By the time your done your up there around $900.
Kimber well, you'll know the difference right away.
 
If I was looking to spend the money on a decent mid-high level Kimber, I'd get something better for the bucks. Let's face it, for the price of most Kimbers I can get a Dlask and have the factory that made the gun within a half day of home, and get a gun that is actually hand fitted.
 
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