T2 Garand - Part 1

[Hitzy]

Oh my, another expert who is fully familiar as the reason we sent those rifles for a complete inspection and proofing after they were in storage for over 60 years.
Perhaps to save me the time, you would be kind enough to inform your fellow shooter here on CGN with the balance of the details ?
John

So just to be clear, these were Terni manufactured complete rifles, stored in Italy for the last 60 years (from 1955) unused, but are mix master parts, and even some Danish overrun receivers were used?
Hauck did no assembly, just inspection, proofed, marked and shipped as they received them?

 

[purple]

Terni Arsenal assembled the Tipo 2 rifles for the Italian Army using Breda, Beretta and Springfield receivers on hand. They did not use surplus Danish receivers for these conversions. Check the photos of Tipo 2 receivers in post # 56 and note that the flat on the receiver heel is stamped "7.62-2" to designate the use of 7.62 ammo rather than the previously standard .30 caliber (.30-06) ammo. The surplus Danish receivers which were used to assemble the Marstar 7.62 rifles do not have this stamping. And of course they also retain the Danish Crown and FKF markings to indicate Danish ownership.The shortened op rods for the 7.62 conversions were also stamped "7.62mm/2" on the handle part of the op rod.

For additional info I recommend the extremely comprehensive and well researched 872 page book, "The M1 Garand Rifle", by Bruce Canfield, an acknowledged expert on the M1 Garand and other US military small arms. Canfield's book discusses both the Danish and Italian use of the Garand and has considerable detail on the Italian 7.62 conversions, of which there are several variants;

-The Tipo 1 which used a purpose made 7.62mm barrel in standard Garand length with 1-12 twist rifling. All parts, except the new 7.62 barrel, were standard Garand parts

-The Tipo 2A which uses standard Garand parts except for a shortened .30 cal barrel re-chambered to 7.62 as well as a modified lower band, and shortened op rod, front handguard, and op rod spring

-The Tipo 2, which was the standardized 7.62 model, uses all standard Garand parts, except for the shorter 7.62 barrel, stock, op rod, rear handguard and op rod spring

-There was also a Tipo 2 sniper variant which was a Tipo 2 rifle with an adapter block for the M84 scope mount

Canfield's book also has a photo of a Springfield Armory Tipo 2 receiver with modified markings on the receiver heel, including the "7.62-2" stamp on the flat of the heel, something which is absent from the Marstar rifles.

It appears that the Terni 7.62 Tipo 2 conversions were done in the mid/late 1960s based on the use of 1963 dated Springfield Armory barrels and the purpose made 1967/68 dated SIAU barrels which were used on them.

 

[Hitzy]

So these are not T2 Terni made military rifles, but "inferior commercially assembled" units worth the sum of their parts.... interesting.

 

[knotking]

I'm sorry I missed it. How much did they sell for?

 

[Hitzy]

I'm sorry I missed it. How much did they sell for?

$1600 for mismatch colored wood, $1750 for matching color wood.
This was the promo email. Note it says made in the 70's but John says stored for 60 years.

Christmas in July

New to Canada
Super Rare Garand T-2 Rifles!
Marstar has sourced a very limited quantity of these rifles, less than 200, so it is “first come, first served’. Take a moment to research this model. We have Garand’s by Beretta and a few by Breda.

In the early 1970s, the Italian arsenal at Terni created the model T2, where they shortened the chamber of the original American 30-06 barrels by 12 mm ( 1/2”) to accommodate 7.62 NATO ammunition. Making this model shorter than the original M1 Garand by approximately 1/2”, its op rod and hand guards are also shorter.

These Garands are collectibles, and are NOT to be confused with inferior commercial conversions. These are the “real thing”: genuine Italian military, and they are seldom seen on the market as most were destroyed years ago. This lot was in storage for over 50 years.

• All markings are correct and are intact
• Beautiful stampings on the receiver and wood
• German proof mark is intact
• Metal finish and wood stocks are in great condition
• Front sight may lean slightly (indexing). Fully adjustable rear sight.

There is a $25 hand-select fee if you would like us to search for certain features that are important to you.

We will be offering a large assortment of Garand parts later this month, both US M-1 and Italian (T-2).

Excellent Condition rifles available with:

Colour Matched Wood
$1750.00

Non-Colour Matched Wood
$1600.00

Here is their video, they look seriously overgassed to me when they get to the shooting part. My 30-06 M1's eject brass forward to the 1-2 o-clock position and rather gently too.
[Youtube]LGPQxyYt-uo[/youtube]

 

[firstson]

johnone
Are these real t2 rifles or made up wannabes?

 

[polaris]

So these are not T2 Terni made military rifles, but "inferior commercially assembled" units worth the sum of their parts.... interesting.

That makes the Garand I am selling a superior rifle and therefore a top notch deal.

 

[Coyote Ugly]

Are there more T2 Garands coming in or is that it?

 

[Sgiandubh]

You got you love the haters ####ting on a really cool buy on a really nice rifle !!!!!!!

 

[Sgiandubh]

ooops I can't say POO????

 

[Hitzy]

You got you love the haters ####ting on a really cool buy on a really nice rifle !!!!!!!

Really think we are haters? I don't think there is another guy on here that knows as much about M1's as Purple does, or do you not care at all what you forked almost $2000 over for? Does it not matter if it's the real deal or not to you? Will you buy my Nork M305 for $2000 if I tell you it's a Springfield?
If they were real T2's there is definitely collector interest, which would mean the guns will likely appreciate in value if unused/used very little. That actually matters to some people. Not everyone looks at a gun as a consumable item.
Also if they are over gassed, good chance oprods will not last long, figure at least $200 to replace them plus the gunsmithing to shorten it. I'm curious to see how much Marstar will list the T2 oprods they say are coming.... I'm guessing $250-$300.
Anyway John will probably be around soon to clear everything up and remind us about the Ironclad Guarantee....it would be nice to know the real history behind these and who/when they were made. The whole "50-60 years in storage but made in the 70's" is just one of the WTF with these. Dane receivers are another.

 

[FlightRN]

BREDA Italian Tipo-2 Garand snipers and grenade launchers

Terni Arsenal assembled the Tipo 2 rifles for the Italian Army using Breda, Beretta and Springfield receivers on hand. They did not use surplus Danish receivers for these conversions. Check the photos of Tipo 2 receivers in post # 56 and note that the flat on the receiver heel is stamped "7.62-2" to designate the use of 7.62 ammo rather than the previously standard .30 caliber (.30-06) ammo. The surplus Danish receivers which were used to assemble the Marstar 7.62 rifles do not have this stamping. And of course they also retain the Danish Crown and FKF markings to indicate Danish ownership.The shortened op rods for the 7.62 conversions were also stamped "7.62mm/2" on the handle part of the op rod.

For additional info I recommend the extremely comprehensive and well researched 872 page book, "The M1 Garand Rifle", by Bruce Canfield, an acknowledged expert on the M1 Garand and other US military small arms. Canfield's book discusses both the Danish and Italian use of the Garand and has considerable detail on the Italian 7.62 conversions, of which there are several variants;
[earlier variant discussion removed to conserve space]
-The Tipo 2, which was the standardized 7.62 model, uses all standard Garand parts, except for the shorter 7.62 barrel, stock, op rod, rear handguard and op rod spring
-There was also a Tipo 2 sniper variant which was a Tipo 2 rifle with an adapter block for the M84 scope mount
Canfield's book also has a photo of a Springfield Armory Tipo 2 receiver with modified markings on the receiver heel, including the "7.62-2" stamp on the flat of the heel, something which is absent from the Marstar rifles.
It appears that the Terni 7.62 Tipo 2 conversions were done in the mid/late 1960s based on the use of 1963 dated Springfield Armory barrels and the purpose made 1967/68 dated SIAU barrels which were used on them.

Good Day,
Thank you for the lively discussion. A few years ago I was fortunate and able to acquire a few actual Tipo-2 receivers. The ultimate disposition of most of them is unknown but its unfortunately likely that the Italians destroyed the majority of them.

I've kept a track of Tipo 2 sniper variants offered overseas and offer a few of the pictures I saved to the community for study.

In addition to the Tipo 2 modifications, The Italians also designed and built their own copies of the US T-119 grenade launchers for their Garands. The T-119 was an experimental launcher tested but not formally adopted by the US military. The US version was built by MECAR who also built launcher spigots for the British No4Mk1.

Can someone who has the one of the "T2" Garand rifles please measure the distance of the op rod spring? In no literature that I can find was the spring mentioned but if the op rod was shortened by 1/2 inch, was the spring as well?

In addition to Canfield's work on the Italian Garand's, I'd like to emphasize the work done by Ruggero Pettinelli. His book "Il Garand in Italia 1951-1996" (available on Amazon) is a great piece (albeit in Italian) for those interested in understanding the Italian M1 rifles including the Tipo-2 rifles.

Regards,
Michael

 

[purple]

Thanks for the factual information which you have added to this thread.

I bought 3 op rod springs from an Italian vendor some years ago which were advertised as being for the Tipo 2 rifle. They were 19 inches long and work fine.

The standard Garand op rod spring specs are 19.75 to 20.25 inches. I've pruned 3 of the standard springs for builds with Tipo 2 parts. I have several Tipo 2 pattern rifles and will strip them in slow time to measure the op rod springs. For my last build I started with an overly long commercial spring and pruned it back incrementally to the point that it functioned properly and allowed the bolt to retract far enough to ensure reliable feeding. The tension in these commercial springs may or may not be similar to a MILSPEC spring.

The military had a weight gauge to determine if a spring was within spec, but the size range given for the standard op rod springs always seems to get a regular length, 24 inch barrel, Garand, working OK.

When pruning an op rod spring I've found that a Dremel cut off wheel works well and doesn't distort the spring. It's a good idea to dress off the sharp end of the spring with a file after cutting it.

 

[big bear]

Could someone clarify where the as new 308 Danish garands on Beretta and Breda receivers fit in all this discussion?Less than 40 are so were marketed by one of the Calgary gunstores a few years agoThey went for $1300-1400 if I recall correctly.

 

[purple]

Thanks for the factual information which you have added to this thread.

I bought 3 op rod springs from an Italian vendor some years ago which were advertised as being for the Tipo 2 rifle. They were 19 inches long and work fine.

The standard Garand op rod spring specs are 19.75 to 20.25 inches. I've pruned 3 of the standard springs for builds with Tipo 2 parts. I have several Tipo 2 pattern rifles and will strip them in slow time to measure the op rod springs. For my last build I started with an overly long commercial spring and pruned it back incrementally to the point that it functioned properly and allowed the bolt to retract far enough to ensure reliable feeding. The tension in these commercial springs may or may not be similar to a MILSPEC spring.

The military had a weight gauge to determine if a spring was within spec, but the size range given for the standard op rod springs always seems to get a regular length, 24 inch barrel, Garand, working OK.

When pruning an op rod spring I've found that a Dremel cut off wheel works well and doesn't distort the spring. It's a good idea to dress off the sharp end of the spring with a file after cutting it.

OK, curiosity was killing me and besides, I wanted to fondle my Tipo2 rifles for a bit. I measured the op rod springs on my 3 remaining rifles and found that 2 are 19.25 inches and the 3rd is 19 inches. None of these were cut so I have to assume that they are all standard Tipo 2 op rod springs. I built 2 of these rifles 10-12 yrs ago and the other just last year and they all function great and are accurate to boot.

 

[purple]

Could someone clarify where the as new 308 Danish garands on Beretta and Breda receivers fit in all this discussion?Less than 40 are so were marketed by one of the Calgary gunstores a few years agoThey went for $1300-1400 if I recall correctly.

According to Bruce Canfield the Danes experimented with a modified 7.62 Garand, but never adopted them. They adopted the German G3 as their 7.62 NATO standard rifle to replace the Garand, and in more recent times switched to the Canadian built C7/M16.

I recall some discussion about these rifles. Don't know if they had 7.62 or .308 Win spec chambers or whether or not they used the shortened 23.5 inch Tipo 2 7.62 barrels. As I recall they were built on the surplus Danish Garand receivers. I suspect that they were a commercially assembled product. The Tipo 2 barrels, stocks and op rods have been available on the parts trade for quite a few years, so who knows? No doubt someone on here has one and can add more.

 

[big bear]

I have one. Gun Collector magazine had an article on them that by my recollection said these were Danish Military production, not private. If the magazine surfaces in my junk I'll post details.Don't plan to ever sell it. test fired with my accuracy load for 150gr Remington bulk PSP and it shot very well indeed. Cleaned it and put it in storage wrappings. Do my 308 playing with a Norinco.

 

[vandoo66]

was out of town ( not checking E-mails) so late to the party; how much did they run??

 

[purple]

I have one. Gun Collector magazine had an article on them that by my recollection said these were Danish Military production, not private. If the magazine surfaces in my junk I'll post details.Don't plan to ever sell it. test fired with my accuracy load for 150gr Remington bulk PSP and it shot very well indeed. Cleaned it and put it in storage wrappings. Do my 308 playing with a Norinco.

A few questions about this one;

-what are the markings on the heel of the receiver behind the rear sight?

- what are the markings on the side of the barrel when you retract the op rod?

- is it stamped .308 Win or 7.62?

- how long is the barrel?

 

[big bear]

Found it! miracles will never cease

I have one. Gun Collector magazine had an article on them that by my recollection said these were Danish Military production, not private. If the magazine surfaces in my junk I'll post details.Don't plan to ever sell it. test fired with my accuracy load for 150gr Remington bulk PSP and it shot very well indeed. Cleaned it and put it in storage wrappings. Do my 308 playing with a Norinco.

FOUND IT! under some "collector" (in my eyes) old wester comic books no less.

Man at Arms for the Gun and Sword Collector Vol 32, No.4,2010, "The Danish Garand GV50" . So I must have bought my rifle in 2010 , as I had rifle before I saw the article.There was a bit of discussion about these rifles then. They sold really quickly. I tried to do a search but it doesn't turn up I guess because it was too long ago. I think I have seen only one ever come up on the EE. They all pretty much looked new.