T2 Garand -Part 2
- Thread starter Light Infantry
- Start date
Spirit...long day. With the heat from the welding and the added on poor grinding on a heat treated bolt, I truly hope both lugs don't let go in the middle of a string of shots. From one pic in the other thread, it appeared 10% contact on one lug and basically 0% on the other on a bolt of questionable hardness that has to hold 50,000psi. I've seen metal fail undergoing a lot less stress than that.
The lugs don't have to totally fail to be extremely dangerous. Much of the grinding was done to welds on the bolts. The crap weld could break and hit your arm, face, eye or someone else. I've been hit by pieces of a broken hardened punch while I was walking by a coworker. I wasn't injured seriously but it hurt like hell for a while. Now picture that by your face...
Metallurgy is very involved and more than what's on the surface...
All of us who shoot Milsurp rifles take on a certain amount of risk based on where the stuff came from, who looked after it originally, and how it was stored well before the question of negligence/misuse comes up.
We can usually only visually inspect, and sometimes we gauge what we buy before we use it.
Please, if you have not already, get a really nice pair of quality shooting glasses and get in the habit of always using using them.
A good pair usually only costs the equivalent of some boxes of decent ammo.
You only have 1 set of eyes!
We can usually only visually inspect, and sometimes we gauge what we buy before we use it.
Please, if you have not already, get a really nice pair of quality shooting glasses and get in the habit of always using using them.
A good pair usually only costs the equivalent of some boxes of decent ammo.
You only have 1 set of eyes!
There wasn't any welding on the bolts I saw, however they were ground.
I'm actually quite familiar with metallurgy and have seen more than one crappy punch as well as a few hammers fly into pieces. I have also seen chisels do the same. We don't know how those welds were applied or what material was used in the wire or rod, all of which has a lot of relevance.
I am not defending what is an obvious wrong. Just not trying to make it sound worse than it really is without some verification. What I fail to understand is why Marstar isn't looking at legal repercussions over this.
100% with this....I cringe when guys post videos of themselves (or sometimes their young kids) shooting milsurps with no eyes on.
These are excellent shooting glasses, starting at $60. They will stop a 12 guage 7 1/2 load at 10 feet.
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B000P...ion+sawfly&dpPl=1&dpID=31Akmij14xL&ref=plSrch
I agree with this 100% but I also believe it should be taken to include every firearm. Many firearms commercial or military do not have adequate venting IMHO. When single shot 22 rim fire rifles get used to the point that the rear of the bolt wears away the headspace is increased as is the gap between the bolt face and chamber. It isn't at all unusual for bits to come out of that gap. Firearms really need to be used with common sense. Nothing should be taken for granted no matter who made it or when it was made. I shudder sometimes when I see a shooter without protective lenses or hearing protection. When I saw the two Marstar associated conversion rifles I shuddered again. All sorts of visions of the possibilities went through my mind. None of them were positive.
When we shoot any firearm, rimfire or center fire we unleash some extremely violent energy. This is all made possible by containing the release of that energy to a small chamber which we hold about 8 inches in front of our face while doing so. The only components capable of containing the energy being released is the steel surrounding the radpid burn of fuel. The rest of the components are just part of the delivery system and as such under certain conditions turn into deadly shrapnel. Same goes for any other tools. Learn the proper safety procedures and apply them accordingly.
If they were just ground I would agree. But they were welded too. The weld is what will cause the change in material properties than can (and in my opinion WILL) cause a shear crack failure under fatigue. The grinding was only done to clean up the welding!!
Claven, I honestly know how you feel about this and I don't like it any better than you do. Do you know how the weld was applied??? Was it TIG? Was it another wire feed? Was it done with rods? Was it spray welded? I don't know and I am familiar with all of these systems. All require different levels of heat and penetrate to different depths. I would suggest that spray welding would be the best way and require the least amount of heat to be generated and then only to the top few thousandths of the surface material. Whatever, the deed was unconscionable and I truly admire your ire at the underhanded way it was done. This whole issue is reminiscent of the practices that used to go on in the mid fifties and early sixties. Not good for our image at all.
This bolt would have failed very quickly.... it's the one that has about 10% total lug engagement. I agree some were not AS BAD, but every one had welding and grinding on it to correct headspace issues. Plus commercial .308 runs hotter then 7.62x51 and 30'06 so best case scenario the lugs hold, but eventually headspace grows as the lugs setback and now you have head separation which the M1 doesn't handle so well.
And really, if you consider how poorly these were ground on a belt grinder, do you really think the guy used proper welding material and technique?
And really, if you consider how poorly these were ground on a belt grinder, do you really think the guy used proper welding material and technique?
My opinion is it was wire feed. The weld quality is too low for TIG. The type of porosity noticed is characteristic of MIG.
Hitzy, Claven I have never suggested in any way that the people putting those firearms together used proper techniques to do so. That's just pure emotion coming out.
From what your pics show IMHO that rifle would soon be dangerous to shoot but not catastrophic. Yes it is unsafe. The bolts I looked at were not so aggressively modified and had much more contact area but the fit and gap were also far to generous. The ground face of the lug wasn't square either. I couldn't deduce the type of welding used on the two examples I saw. There was no visible evidence of excessive heat generation nor porosity. Likely some destructive testing, by a qualified lab which would cut the lugs and XRay/hardness test the cores would be able to ascertain those facts. My eyes just aren't that good and quite frankly never have been to be able to pick up microscopic anomalies.
Are the guns safe???? Maybe but that is a big maybe and I personally wouldn't trust or purchase one.
I have seen quite literally mountains of M1 Garands that were considered to be "Field Grade" which I would have called scrap. Many of the firearms sold by International out of Montreal back in the Golden Days were often barely functional. Some of the Indian made FN FALs come to mind there. I bought three of those for the princely sum of $99 each, delivered. They were sold as being in "Fair but safe to shoot condition." IMHO they weren't and I stripped them for parts and cut the receivers in half as some were not only worn but had huge rust pits. The same goes for some of the handguns they used to sell. It was a crap shoot and we all recognized it as such. Every once in awhile a real gem would appear in the plain brown paper box, or if you had access to the warehouse you could cherry pick.
The big crime here is not the immediate safety concerns which are viable and readily apparent in some cases and eventually quite likely all cases but the extremely unethical manner in which they were advertised and sold. It was obviously fraudulent IMHO and I am still surprised they aren't in litigation already. Somewhere along the way the ball has been dropped by those that could do something about this in court. I can understand if they made a deal with an unscrupulous supplier/assembler in Europe and they were duped but to pass that along to the general public without full disclosure of the issues takes this issue to an even lower level of ethics. Personally, I haven't even looked at the Marstar site since visually inspecting the two Garands. I don't intend to go near them again.
From what your pics show IMHO that rifle would soon be dangerous to shoot but not catastrophic. Yes it is unsafe. The bolts I looked at were not so aggressively modified and had much more contact area but the fit and gap were also far to generous. The ground face of the lug wasn't square either. I couldn't deduce the type of welding used on the two examples I saw. There was no visible evidence of excessive heat generation nor porosity. Likely some destructive testing, by a qualified lab which would cut the lugs and XRay/hardness test the cores would be able to ascertain those facts. My eyes just aren't that good and quite frankly never have been to be able to pick up microscopic anomalies.
Are the guns safe???? Maybe but that is a big maybe and I personally wouldn't trust or purchase one.
I have seen quite literally mountains of M1 Garands that were considered to be "Field Grade" which I would have called scrap. Many of the firearms sold by International out of Montreal back in the Golden Days were often barely functional. Some of the Indian made FN FALs come to mind there. I bought three of those for the princely sum of $99 each, delivered. They were sold as being in "Fair but safe to shoot condition." IMHO they weren't and I stripped them for parts and cut the receivers in half as some were not only worn but had huge rust pits. The same goes for some of the handguns they used to sell. It was a crap shoot and we all recognized it as such. Every once in awhile a real gem would appear in the plain brown paper box, or if you had access to the warehouse you could cherry pick.
The big crime here is not the immediate safety concerns which are viable and readily apparent in some cases and eventually quite likely all cases but the extremely unethical manner in which they were advertised and sold. It was obviously fraudulent IMHO and I am still surprised they aren't in litigation already. Somewhere along the way the ball has been dropped by those that could do something about this in court. I can understand if they made a deal with an unscrupulous supplier/assembler in Europe and they were duped but to pass that along to the general public without full disclosure of the issues takes this issue to an even lower level of ethics. Personally, I haven't even looked at the Marstar site since visually inspecting the two Garands. I don't intend to go near them again.
One point that could be made is that the vast majority of individuals and companies we buy milsurps from do not and will not certify them as safe to shoot. For that we have to rely either on our own personal knowledge or that of someone we trust. Newcomers to the hobby have to be encouraged to seriously study up on what their doing. The purchasers of these Marstar rifles were fortunate in having folks with a lot of expertise jump in and help out the ones that might not even have recognized the issues. For most of our one-off purchases we can't rely on that type of help.
milsurpo
milsurpo
nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Thinking on this thread and the "Long gone shops" thread. The end of the other thread is right now talking about Franks Supermarket in Quesnel. Its not technically a long gone shop, still running; just been sold, Frank is gone.
So my point is this. When it comes down to it, each shop; probably true of every business.....decisions, direction, energy....it all comes down to one man. In many cases when that person dies, the shop is sold, or moves; the shop dies, fades, becomes a different or lesser version of itself.
Most of Johns rebuttals to other threads were within his rights as a forum and business sponsor. Abrupt, borderline rude at times. Now, considering these "M2's", all those responses, and the issues raised by each OP need to be reexamined in a new light.
One man, one vision, one direction. Pretty sure that John would be pretty curt, and borderline rude if he could still or chose to comment here. It remains to be seen what impact leaving CGN will have on his business, but i am willing to bet more than John would admit. This issue seems hardly worth it, it will follow him for every Google search a prospective customer does placing doubt on his business and name. This before any Garand buyer wears a bolt. In the end, it comes down to one person, John need only find a mirror.
So my point is this. When it comes down to it, each shop; probably true of every business.....decisions, direction, energy....it all comes down to one man. In many cases when that person dies, the shop is sold, or moves; the shop dies, fades, becomes a different or lesser version of itself.
Most of Johns rebuttals to other threads were within his rights as a forum and business sponsor. Abrupt, borderline rude at times. Now, considering these "M2's", all those responses, and the issues raised by each OP need to be reexamined in a new light.
One man, one vision, one direction. Pretty sure that John would be pretty curt, and borderline rude if he could still or chose to comment here. It remains to be seen what impact leaving CGN will have on his business, but i am willing to bet more than John would admit. This issue seems hardly worth it, it will follow him for every Google search a prospective customer does placing doubt on his business and name. This before any Garand buyer wears a bolt. In the end, it comes down to one person, John need only find a mirror.
As far as I'm aware people just sent their rifles back for a full refund and that was it. No official recall from Marstar. Hopefully word got around to everyone who purchased. Hate to think there's still a few out there that are seeing use at the range. Marstar and CGN subsequently parted company.
