SxS defense shotgun

[Red Beard Forge]

Red Beard Forge,

Everything you said just helps prove how f****d Canada is.

3 SSS's man..

I get it our laws are not made with common sense or our natural rights in mind but people saying shoot shovel and shut up are pretty naive. Self defense with lethal force is legal in Canada and I can point to several recent court rulings that reflect this. Yes even if you are in the right it will cost you a significant amount of time and money to prove it but in the end you are alive and free. If someone follows the SSS advice odds are good it will come up eventually and there is no statute of limitations on murder and your ability to claim self defense goes out the window as soon as you hide the body not to mention indignity to a corpse, and the laundry list of other charges you are now actually guilty of regardless of whether or not the initial shooting was justified. Our court system is screwed up as it is why would you want to put yourself even further behind the 8 ball than you already are in that situation.

There is no castle doctrine in Canada so any self defense related shooting will have to be directly in defense of human life it should be common sense but nothing you own is worth killing for and it will be judged against the standard of what a "reasonable person" would have done in the same position notice it says reasonable person not average person or even majority of people. Again common sense and self preservation should dictate that if you can avoid, de-escalate, or escape the situation you should. This is life skills 101 not rocket science ... as manly as it may feel to say "anyone who comes here unwanted is leaving in a box" it not reasonable or realistic and reflects a worldview I am glad most people don't share. Rule #1 of life is Don't die and engaging in a fight you could have avoided or escaped is not going to help you do that not matter how righteous or justified you feel about it. Its just a numbers game and given that you are on the defensive you are already at a disadvantage. Don't get me wrong rule #1 also means you must do whatever is necessary to survive if avoidance or escape are not possible.

Our laws need some serious reform so people need to stop whining and put their money in the game supporting those who can effectively lobby for change. We are already the only country in the world to reverse a registry program, C-42 helps but didn't go far enough but it goes to show that positive change is possible so I am not giving up yet

 

[madashell]

I get it our laws are not made with common sense or our natural rights in mind but people saying shoot shovel and shut up are pretty naive. Self defense with lethal force is legal in Canada and I can point to several recent court rulings that reflect this. Yes even if you are in the right it will cost you a significant amount of time and money to prove it but in the end you are alive and free. If someone follows the SSS advice odds are good it will come up eventually and there is no statute of limitations on murder and your ability to claim self defense goes out the window as soon as you hide the body not to mention indignity to a corpse, and the laundry list of other charges you are now actually guilty of regardless of whether or not the initial shooting was justified. Our court system is screwed up as it is why would you want to put yourself even further behind the 8 ball than you already are in that situation.

There is no castle doctrine in Canada so any self defense related shooting will have to be directly in defense of human life it should be common sense but nothing you own is worth killing for and it will be judged against the standard of what a "reasonable person" would have done in the same position notice it says reasonable person not average person or even majority of people. Again common sense and self preservation should dictate that if you can avoid, de-escalate, or escape the situation you should. This is life skills 101 not rocket science ... as manly as it may feel to say "anyone who comes here unwanted is leaving in a box" it not reasonable or realistic and reflects a worldview I am glad most people don't share. Rule #1 of life is Don't die and engaging in a fight you could have avoided or escaped is not going to help you do that not matter how righteous or justified you feel about it. Its just a numbers game and given that you are on the defensive you are already at a disadvantage. Don't get me wrong rule #1 also means you must do whatever is necessary to survive if avoidance or escape are not possible.

Our laws need some serious reform so people need to stop whining and put their money in the game supporting those who can effectively lobby for change. We are already the only country in the world to reverse a registry program, C-42 helps but didn't go far enough but it goes to show that positive change is possible so I am not giving up yet

right .... and what if the person didn't have the money to properly defend themselves ? There goes that idea eh ?

Far as I'm concerned at this point politicians need to be hung for treason.

 

[Red Beard Forge]

there have been several cases where individuals who were not wealthy won cases showing self defense with a firearm was justified its just easier if you have the money. I am tempted to look into firearms legal defense insurance for precisely that reason. I haven't read all the fine print yet but it looks like a year of coverage costs about what I drop on ammo and range fees for one trip to the range. I agree we need to change the laws around firearms but in regard to self defense we need to make the crown accountable for the cases they bring before the courts as the law itself is quite clear and reasonable its the administration of that law that is skewed to punish the law abiding with undue process and a presumption of guilt which is not applied even to the worst criminals

 

[madashell]

there have been several cases where individuals who were not wealthy won cases showing self defense with a firearm was justified its just easier if you have the money. I am tempted to look into firearms legal defense insurance for precisely that reason. I haven't read all the fine print yet but it looks like a year of coverage costs about what I drop on ammo and range fees for one trip to the range. I agree we need to change the laws around firearms but in regard to self defense we need to make the crown accountable for the cases they bring before the courts as the law itself is quite clear and reasonable its the administration of that law that is skewed to punish the law abiding with undue process and a presumption of guilt which is not applied even to the worst criminals

Make the judges, lawyers, cops & politicians accountable ?

Sorry sir, but my faith in a political or legal solution is a little on the low side these days.

 

[Brutus]

For me at least, even though I live on the edge of a bad neighborhood, and have some downright shady people living in my building, I don't see defending my home as being very likely outside of a disaster or massive civil unrest scenario.

^There you go. For 99.9% of Canadians this is the real truth.

Cheers

 

[Brutus]

I think it's a terrible idea. To invest any time or money into this "build" for home defense situations is borderline absurd. With so many other practical platforms out there, why would you ever want to limit yourself to a SxS shotgun?

If you were in a situation where it's the only firearm you're ever going to own, then you'll obviouly make do with it and live with the limitations of your choice.

So, you're looking for rock solid reliability and ease of use under high stress situations? Buy yourself a Glock and don't look back. If you "need" to have a shotgun then get a pump - any pump at all would be far superior.

At the end of the day, you have to answer to your family. If you sincerely believe you're adequately protecting your life and their's with a SxS shotgun, then I highly doubt we're going to convince you otherwise.

Best of luck to you. I hope you're never put into a situation where you're going to learn from making a life threatening mistake.

I know this is the Canadian formula, but really, choosing any handgun over a fairly decent and adequate caliber shotgun (when you have the option) is just poor judgement.

Read anything regarding post-mortem inspection of cadavers in much more violent America cities.
Not many gunfights require one or at the most, two shot shells hitting and stopping the attacker.
End of gun battle with a pistol armed opponent.

my 2 bits

 

[Red Beard Forge]

Make the judges, lawyers, cops & politicians accountable ?

Sorry sir, but my faith in a political or legal solution is a little on the low side these days.

I didn't say it was likely to happen tomorrow but refusing to do anything is definitely the best way to make sure nothing changes!

 

[Tomochan]

I don't see how you could make the claim this thread is falling apart and will be locked. Maybe you missed the OP's initial post where in the last line of his post, he asked for opinions to counter his thoughts of his proposed SxS build. So far, he's got what he asked for and the debate has been civil.

As far as your choice of firearm, you should plan for the worst and hope for the best. If you seriously believe a SxS shotgun is the ideal tool for the job, then have at it. You're the one who will have to live (or not) with the consequences of your choice.

If you seriously read what I wrote previously in this thread you will see that my choice is ( from post 17 in this thread ) as follows :".......A seriously better idea is a pump action though and not one that is all tricked out and tacti-cool but something simple like a 870 with a 18" tube and wood furniture (so when you are in Court down the road it won't look like you were really tooling up and hoping for the day to come when you had to go to HD mode)...".

 

[madashell]

I didn't say it was likely to happen tomorrow but refusing to do anything is definitely the best way to make sure nothing changes!

Not knowing who your real enemy are and what their end game is, is definitely the best way to make sure nothing changes.

Our political & legal systems are so corrupt and fraudulent now it's disgusting.

Bringing back lynchings would be more realistic.

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

Somethings I left out of my post;

-Yes I believe good doors, windows, locks, motion lights, surveillance cameras, security system, and dog(s) that bark, go a long long way in preventing the scenario of waking to an intruder in your home.

-If you do wake to an intruder in your home, you are unlikely to have enough time to get a firearm out and ready.

-"Dead men tells no tales" or the SSS plan, maybe held some merit a hundred years ago, but really not today. So many factors are working against you, and if caught you will have little viable defense or credibility.

Personally if I ever find myself in a self defense situation, I hope I can stop them without killing them, and would be performing first aid, as I call the ambulance and police if they do get shot. Not necessarily because I want to save them, but because I want to save me. As I said in my other post, "self defense" goes allot further than protection from criminals. In Canada, you have to protect yourself from the Law as well. If practical I would absolutely grab my rifle if I heard an intruder, but the intent would be to contain them until Police arrive. If required I would defend as needed, and if that meant the intruder dies, I would still sleep fine knowing I had no choice.

 

[Red Beard Forge]

Not knowing who your real enemy are and what their end game is, is definitely the best way to make sure nothing changes.

Our political & legal systems are so corrupt and fraudulent now it's disgusting.

Bringing back lynchings would be more realistic.

clearly we speak different languages. You would like to see people hanged without trial (thats what lynching means look it up) and think shoot shovel and shut up is a legitimate way to deal with intruders. As for who the enemy is sometimes we are our own worst enemies with opinions like yours floating out there for every anti to use in justifying how being licensed is not enough and gun owners are nuts.

 

[madashell]

clearly we speak different languages. You would like to see people hanged without trial (thats what lynching means look it up) and think shoot shovel and shut up is a legitimate way to deal with intruders. As for who the enemy is sometimes we are our own worst enemies with opinions like yours floating out there for every anti to use in justifying how being licensed is not enough and gun owners are nuts.

You CLEARLY do not have the slightest clue as to what is REALLY going on in this country. Continue to live in your media indoctrinated fantasy world.

You also need to re-read. I did not say I wanted to bring back lynchings, I said the reality is they have as much a likelihood of being brought back vs solving the issues politically and/or legally. In other words ..... BOTH are fantasy.

And as far as I'm concerned, people who think the sitting government are the ones who are actually running the show are the ones who are nuts.

Really, when it comes right down to it, people who buy the party line just can't handle the truth.

 

[Greenhorse six]

I don't know if you'd really need ejectors , maybe polished chambers , I mean , you watch some of those cowboy action shooters , and they're not allowed ejectors on their SxS , they're pretty fast with the reloads .
But you should have a light on it .

Oh , and IBTL

 

[geologist]

I don't know if you'd really need ejectors , maybe polished chambers , I mean , you watch some of those cowboy action shooters , and they're not allowed ejectors on their SxS , they're pretty fast with the reloads .
But you should have a light on it .

Oh , and IBTL

 

[Greenhorse six]

Love that picture , was hoping you'd show up with it , IIRC , it was Jeff Cooper , who said that a double-barreled shotgun with exposed hammers was the best homestead defense gun , because you could keep it loaded with the hammers down .

 

[Greenhorse six]

And , after 2 shots , if you don't have time to reload and things are getting close and personal , the Outlaw is heavy enough to be a great club .lol
Damn it , Wish I hadn't of sold mine .

 

[Coachgun67]

I

No "Internet Tough Guy" here. Simply trying to point out the reality of the situation. to answer your first question about restricted firearms. I own (8) of them, with (5) of them being handguns. I fail to see how it's relevant to the discussion.

No, I don't own a Glock, however, I would recommend one for the reasons I stated. Glocks have a reputation for good ergonomics and even novice shooters can become proficient in their use with good practice. Sure, they're not for everyone, myself included. However, with many satisfied owners relating their experiences, how could it possibly be a poor recommendation?

I call BS on your assertion that a person is "in more trouble" with the law if you're charged with firearm offenses while using a restricted vs a non-restricted firearm. It simply isn't the case, especially under the circumstances you present in your argument. There's no distinction.

I don't share your beliefs that a SxS shotgun "will do" against 5 intruders. How can you possibly claim that? The odds are stacked against you to begin with, regardless of your choice of firearm. The only advantage a person has is that you have the home court advantage of knowing the layout of your home.

I'm curious to know why you think any shotgun, let alone a SxS, is a good choice for HD situations by someone with little to no interest or experience with firearms? Let me guess, just point and shoot, right? How could you possibly expect your wife to use ANY firearm in a competent manner under a poentially life threatening situation without being familiar with it's use?

To your point about your UTS. Are you referring to the UTS-15? Are you making an argument for its use in a HD situation? If so, given the platform's reputation for not being reliable, why would you want to out yourself in that position?

It becomes relevant if you assume stuff you have no experience with ( Glock ) and suggest it to others as solution.

Glocks reputation for ergonomics? Lol...I sold my 21 in favor to a M&P 45 because of the ergonomics...reliability would be a Glocks reputation, but she's not for everybody to shoot with ( unless you hold it sideways ...nothing matters then anyway)

With a restricted you are in more trouble because they always are going for the incorrect storage,how could you ever have that thing unlocked and loaded in that time...you must have had it kept loaded. Always hard to prove otherwise...( Ian Thompson case comes to mind)

I said 5 intruders...if they want to clean your house, they're usually not too heavy armed and run for cover once the armed gets hit. If your scenario is 5 armed professinal guys determined to kill, that would be war or apocalypse ####, not a "usual" home invasion. For that, set up claymores or you're f'd anyway, for the break and enter a SxS
does the job.I know that for fact because it happened to me already...And my jack russel gave me the 45 second head start back then. If you don't share beliefs, that's fine. Been there done that. Prepare your style if you're more confident with that. I'm CAS trained,keep that in mind before you call guys like me "borderline absurd"
Because you can't doesn't mean there aren't any others...

I think a SxS is perfect for my wife, again don't assume. Bit of history: She used to out shoot me at the trap range, she knows damn well how to use it...not a rookie by any means, but she lost interest and never regained it after our daughter was born...

Yup, I'm referring to the UTS-15...reputation,eh? Guess you never tried one ( like the Glock?). The Gen 1 and 2 had issues, right. That is solved for good. My Gen 3 has about 1750 rounds down the pipe and NOT A SINGLE FTE or FTF, and a lot of youtube heros are just too dumb to shoot: It's inviting, the UTS is a short stroke operation,so half the people tend to stroke it even shorter - jam. Rack her like you should, no problem.

 

[Coachgun67]

I wasn't going to comment on Coachgun67's UTS assertion but since Mossberg_590A1 did I might as well.

Many seem to think just because something is new and cool looking it's better and the fact is a UTS is not a proven firearm with a track record of reliability like an 870 or 590 has.

Simple reliable platforms are the way to go just about every time. One could argue that's exactly what a SxS is but you have to take into consideration the "fumble factor" and the "continuing to operate it factor."

Coach guns are good for period era movies or cool zombie scenes and t's certainly good for getting two rounds off right now if you could have it sitting there loaded and then drop the thing for something else, but like cement head stated, if the first 2 shots don't do it you're in trouble.

For those who want to argue the short stroke factor on a pump ... EVERY firearm has it's operational shortcomings. ANYONE can short stroke. I've seem well train serious "operators" do it under fire. It happens. But it can be cleared quickly. Just like you can't run a pump forearm like a wimp, you can't clear it like a wimp either.

Look at the reloading factor of a coach gun vs a pump. The reloading of a SxS has a somewhat precise small angle of placing in the shell. A pump is much more forgiving in terms of the "space" to get a shell in there. Also, the reload advantage of the pump is you drop one in the ejection port and chamber it before loading the mag tube (at least that's the way you should be doing it).... this of course gives you a round "right now" if need be.

Ok, sure, you can say that about a SxS as well but you don't have to be anywhere near as precise dropping that shell into the ejection port of a pump as you do the chamber of a coach gun.

Most are not a youtube superstar operator. The more the design allows for the "fumble factor" the more reliable the platform is in terms of keeping it running.

I'm not going into everything about SxS vs Pump,you can look that up in my answer to Mossberg_590...

The UTS gen 1 and 2 were not reliable. My Gen3 is better than late 870s ( my dads 80's wingmaster is a fail free, something I can't say about my late (2015) 870)...At least the 590 is not to question. 1750 rounds without jam, how long will I have to shoot my UTS before you think I can consider it reliable? Good enough for me, and it's advantage over the regular pump is clearly the round capacity, being only half as long and the low mount barrel design, she does not kick up- rather a straight push back without having to line up on target again. Would be my Zombie apocalypse gun... 15 rds 00 buck, 9 8mm pellets each round, what's not to like.
Other than that, I'm with you...Canada's legal system is f'd for normal people (No justice there). I'd never 3S, because I'm lazy...I have a backhoe.

 

[Mossberg_590A1]

It becomes relevant if you assume stuff you have no experience with ( Glock ) and suggest it to others as solution.

Glocks reputation for ergonomics? Lol...I sold my 21 in favor to a M&P 45 because of the ergonomics...reliability would be a Glocks reputation, but she's not for everybody to shoot with ( unless you hold it sideways ...nothing matters then anyway)

With a restricted you are in more trouble because they always are going for the incorrect storage,how could you ever have that thing unlocked and loaded in that time...you must have had it kept loaded. Always hard to prove otherwise...( Ian Thompson case comes to mind)

I said 5 intruders...if they want to clean your house, they're usually not too heavy armed and run for cover once the armed gets hit. If your scenario is 5 armed professinal guys determined to kill, that would be war or apocalypse ####, not a "usual" home invasion. For that, set up claymores or you're f'd anyway, for the break and enter a SxS
does the job.I know that for fact because it happened to me already...And my jack russel gave me the 45 second head start back then. If you don't share beliefs, that's fine. Been there done that. Prepare your style if you're more confident with that. I'm CAS trained,keep that in mind before you call guys like me "borderline absurd"
Because you can't doesn't mean there aren't any others...

I think a SxS is perfect for my wife, again don't assume. Bit of history: She used to out shoot me at the trap range, she knows damn well how to use it...not a rookie by any means, but she lost interest and never regained it after our daughter was born...

Yup, I'm referring to the UTS-15...reputation,eh? Guess you never tried one ( like the Glock?). The Gen 1 and 2 had issues, right. That is solved for good. My Gen 3 has about 1750 rounds down the pipe and NOT A SINGLE FTE or FTF, and a lot of youtube heros are just too dumb to shoot: It's inviting, the UTS is a short stroke operation,so half the people tend to stroke it even shorter - jam. Rack her like you should, no problem.

No, I've never owned either the Glock or UTS-15. So what? I'm making comments based on what is generally understood as common knowledge based on the experiences of others. As I said, the Glock isn't for me personally but it wouldn't stop me from recommending it because it's a great hangun. The numbers don't lie. Unless of course, you have another reasonable explanation as to why they're so popular?

I actually like the UTS and have seriously thought about buying one now that they're considerably less expensive than they have been. As a range toy I'm sure it's fun. But that's all it would ever be. For a number of reasons, it would be my last choice as a HD firearm.

I don't think there's such a thing as a "usual" home invasion. Every situation is unique due to the large number of variables involved that can't be planned for or anticipated. The only thing a person can do is to control the controllables. Your firearm of choice, is one of the few things you can control. For me, a SxS shotgun is a poor choice. For you, perhaps not.

This has got nothing to do with ZA or hero fantasy. It's about making choices that either increasr or decrease your chances of survival. Choose wisely.

 

[Coachgun67]

No, I've never owned either the Glock or UTS-15. So what? I'm making comments based on what is generally understood as common knowledge based on the experiences of others. As I said, the Glock isn't for me personally but it wouldn't stop me from recommending it because it's a great hangun. The numbers don't lie. Unless of course, you have another reasonable explanation as to why they're so popular?

I actually like the UTS and have seriously thought about buying one now that they're considerably less expensive than they have been. As a range toy I'm sure it's fun. But that's all it would ever be. For a number of reasons, it would be my last choice as a HD firearm.

I don't think there's such a thing as a "usual" home invasion. Every situation is unique due to the large number of variables involved that can't be planned for or anticipated. The only thing a person can do is to control the controllables. Your firearm of choice, is one of the few things you can control. For me, a SxS shotgun is a poor choice. For you, perhaps not.

This has got nothing to do with ZA or hero fantasy. It's about making choices that either increasr or decrease your chances of survival. Choose wisely.

Generally understood common knowledge these days voted LIEberal, so I wouldn't give too much about it. My Choice is wisely...The SxS clears the way to my "arsenal".
As for the UTS,seriously now, go ahead and buy one...If you don't like it, I'd still give you 600 for the used one.