New to 3 gun wanting to start

Jdiep said:
How reliable is the m3k stoger? I was at a sporting clay club and guys were saying in tournaments . The semis are the ones that have the most issues. Of course this is completely different. And this may be a newb question. But to shoot slugs... do you need a slug choke or can you use full choke?
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I have been using the Stoeger M3000, which is basically the same gun minus some of the extended controls and the 24" barrel. I can tell you that mine has been completely reliable even with light loads.
It gets a steady diet of Challenger 2 3/4 7.5's and spits them out as fast as I can pull the trigger. Also, I am not gentle on my 3 gun firearms. They get tossed into dump buckets and have been bounced off obstacles and barricades and, the Stoeger has been flawless so far. From my experience, I would recommend the M3K because eventually you are gonna want to add the mods that this gun comes with from factory. Good luck in your choice.
 
Horse96 said:
The stoeger looks pretty nice, and affordable. It's a benelli inertia action. I hear mixed reviews on the inertia action with light target loads; heavy loads are very reliable in inertia actions. I would avoid the hatsan and etc shotguns; not looking to start a war if your hatsan runs excellently, I just have seen hatsan's have problems. And on that note, same with some pump actions. Shotgun's can be a pain in the arse, but they are the most fun gun to shoot in 3 gun, imo.

If you are going to skimp, get an 870 or 590 pump. Some people say that chokes aren't necessary but I think that they are. Some steel is very stubborn and will not fall. The tighter your pattern, the higher the chance that steel will fall. I keep a full compliment of chokes on hand, but mostly run improved cylinder.

And you can shoot slugs through a turkey choke if you want. Most slugs have 'rifling' on them. The rifling is not to spin the projectile as some may say, but the rifling is so the slug can squeeze (swage) through any choke. You do not need a rifled choke to shoot slugs. You need a rifled barrel to shoot sabot slugs. A rifled choke, I think, would be no good at all for 3 gun because your lead shot will get all beat up going through the choke and doing so would deform the shot and the rifled choke. That said, I do not have any direct experience with rifled chokes so I could be way out in left field. I'd stick to the conventional chokes, IC, M, F and etc.
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I've heard this theory that the grooves on slugs are for sealing and swaging through the various bore diameters a slug sees as it goes through a shotgun barrel and choke. However I shot some slick sided slugs last week, trying a buddy's experimental slug load. I found it was shooting humongous groups - like 4' at 50 meters. Whereas with my regular S&G grooved slugs I shoot something like 2" at 50 meters. So I'm a believer in the grooves spinning and stabilizing slugs. [this is in a 28" Versa Max regular barrel with IC choke]
 
Slugs are stabilized by their weight distribution... solid front, hollowed out tail (much like a badminton birdie). The rifling is definitely to allow them to swage down. Not sure who's slugs you were shooting... but they were likely undersized in order to work with the smooth sided design, leading to the accuracy issues you experienced.
 
Stolen from Wikipedia... but speaks the truth anyways...

"Foster slugs
A Foster slug, invented by Karl Foster (or Forster) in 1931, is a type of shotgun slug designed to be fired through a smoothbore shotgun barrel. It was invented by Foster to enable deer hunting in the Great Depression using smoothbore, choked shotguns. Foster cast them by hand from soft lead, filed grooves on their exteriors, and sold them to his neighbors to improve hunting potential to feed their families. The Foster is the standard American domestic shotgun slug; they are sometimes referred to as "American slugs" to differentiate them from the standard "European slug" design popularized earlier by Brenneke.

The defining characteristic of the Foster slug is the deep hollow in the rear, which places the center of mass very near the front tip of the slug, much like a shuttlecock or a pellet from an airgun. If the slug begins to tumble in flight, drag will tend to push the slug back into straight flight, stabilizing the slug. This gives the Foster slug stability and allows for accurate shooting through smoothbore barrels out to ranges of about 75 yards (69 m), providing accuracy over far greater distances than the 25 yd. limit typical when shooting traditional "pumpkin balls" through a shotgun.

Most Foster slugs also have "rifling", which consists of thin fins on the outside of the slug. Contrary to popular belief, these fins impart no spin onto the slug as it travels through the air. The actual purpose of these fins is to minimize the friction on both the barrel and projectile and allow the slug to be swaged down safely when fired through a choke, although accuracy will suffer and choke wear may be progressively accelerated when fired through any gauge choked tighter than about improved cylinder.[clarification needed] Foster slugs can safely be swaged down much more than Brenneke slugs, when fired through a choke, being hollow. The amount of wear on a choke is therefore much less of a problem than when shooting Brenneke slugs.

It is also possible to fire Foster slugs through rifled slug barrels, though lead fouling (build-up in the rifle grooves) is a problem. Accuracy is otherwise not appreciably affected in standard shotgun rifling.

Roll-crimping is traditionally used to close a shotgun shell containing a Foster slug. This increases the difficulty for handloading Foster slugs, today, as special roll-crimp tools using a drill press are often recommended for handloading Foster slugs. During the 1930s, though, many if not most shotgun shells were roll-crimped over an overshot card, and hand tools for putting a roll crimp on a paper shell were readily available and very inexpensive. Using a roll-crimp was simply the easiest way to close a shotgun shell case at the time."
 
Back on topic though, you have been given sound advice on shotguns... For pump stick with a Remington 870, Mossberg 590 or Benelli Nova/Supernova (Chokes are a definite advantage as stated). Most guys are running longer bird barrels for 3 gun these days anyways and with a pump there's no (legal) capacity limit so run a 26"+ barrel and slap on a huge tube. If you want to go Semi you have some more options, Stoeger M3K would definitely be my budget semi auto of choice... some small parts breakage has been reported, but they can mostly be replaced with Benelli parts that should last much longer. Spending a little (or a lot...) more money will get you into a Versamax or my personal favorite the Benelli M2, which will almost certainly be the last 3 gun shotgun you will ever need. There is a pro shooter in the states with over 300,000 rounds through his Benelli m1 with very minimal parts failures. What has failed I believe was replaced on warranty... though being a pro he may have better industry contacts than the rest of us :D.
 
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Dexter Morgan said:
Condition 2 is still a loaded handgun.

And it's still a DQ if your gun falls out of the holster.
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Not always...

At the matches I shoot the pistol start condition is usually mag inserted chamber empty.
If the pistol falls out of the holster during the CoF in this condition... Pick it up, reholster and go.
No DQ.

As far as holstering a truly "hot" pistol... I can think of only one major 3gun event where it is or has been an "option".
Dump buckets are pretty much universal when securing empty pistols mid stage...
When the pistol is the last gun employed the usual "unload and show clear... reholster" routine is used.
 
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Pistol should have to be loaded to get a DQ. If your walking to reload your clips and you smash your holster off a post and the gun falls out, it's a DQ? Not for IPSC atleast.
 
Dexter Morgan said:
Was this in Canada, or USA?
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USA... 'But at the matches I have a hand in running we have also adopted the policy.
I mean MD's should mitigate the chances of DQ's occurring as much as possible.

You show the RO an empty chamber.
You insert a mag into the pistol and holster.
Shooter knows the chamber is empty. RO knows the chamber is empty.
If that pistol get knocked out of its holster how unsafe is it really?
You may as well start handing out DQ's for shoe laces coming undone 'cause that's more dangerous than a pistol with no round in the chamber
 
667 said:
USA... 'But at the matches I have a hand in running we have also adopted the policy.
I mean MD's should mitigate the chances of DQ's occurring as much as possible.

You show the RO an empty chamber.
You insert a mag into the pistol and holster.
Shooter knows the chamber is empty. RO knows the chamber is empty.
If that pistol get knocked out of its holster how unsafe is it really?
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About as unsafe as sweeping the RO with that same pistol I suppose but I'm guessing most consider that a reason for DQ. Shooters need to know their gear and that it works as it is supposed to. Our matches often have various handgun start conditions, sometimes a round is in the chamber and sometimes it isn't. Our rule is that if your handgun falls out during a course of fire then it is a match DQ and I hate to see it happen - not because it is particularly dangerous but because I hate seeing shooters DQ and I especially hate seeing a handgun spinning in the dirt and gravel.
 
I suppose as long as everyone knows ahead of time what exactly earns a DQ it doesn't matter...
Ultimately it's up to the MD to stipulate what is and what isn't a DQ-able offense.
'Shooters don't have to agree, they just need to conduct themselves accordingly or.... Set up and run a match the way they think it should be set up and run.
 
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