KAC SR-15 or DD M4?

[bongoz]

You don't mind but some of us prefer to have functioning tools and access to spare parts without a lot of hassle. Proprietary parts does not make life easy.

As OST mentioned it's not hard to source a KAC bolt.

If you want to have spare parts then order the bolt from OST just as you'd order a spare for any other AR-15. It really isn't as difficult as we're making it out to be...

Now if we're talking SHTF/End of the world type scenario then remember you can drop a regular bolt into the SR-15 and it will work in a pinch.

no one has addressed my other point about not seeing any performance gains in the KAC over the DD, because there aren't any that are worth the extra cost.

A few things that pop into my mind are ambi controls, included BUIS that are arguably the best available on the market, softer and smoother recoil due to the intermediate gas system.

Let's also not forget to mention the E3 bolt as we all seem very concerned with bolts breaking. There hasn't been a reported E3 bolt break with standard use as far as I'm aware... The same cannot be said for a regular AR-15 bolt.

 

[rally guy]

Lets put aside the ambi thing for those of us that are right handed (not the op) what is the KAC advantage? Precision, weight, durability?

Btw the same could be said of the dd over the colt! I had both (DD, Colt) sold the colt only cause I preferred the feature on my DD. But had as much faith in both products

 

[Still alive]

Lets put aside the ambi thing for those of us that are right handed (not the op) what is the KAC advantage? Precision, weight, durability?

Precision and durability. Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'

 

[GD7]

Maybe I'm just a noob, but isn't KAC one of the highest quality AR's money can buy along with Barret, Noveske, BCM, LMT and H&K? I know DD is quality, but I always thought of KAC being out of their league?

When taken at par, yes. The original question, before my thread went off the rails, was did it justify $1400-1500 extra in price. If it was a matter of picking which one was outright better, it would have been much simpler.

 

[rally guy]

Precision and durability. Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'

Never heard DD be a nail driver... but never heard KAC was any better! Shure there good but both are desigbe as battel weapons not target shooter so there barrel accuracy reflects that, from what I heard

 

[Still alive]

Never heard DD be a nail driver... but never heard KAC was any better! Shure there good but both are desigbe as battel weapons not target shooter so there barrel accuracy reflects that, from what I heard

Precision is relative! A 1-2 MOA rifle is pretty precise for a combat platform. Throw a 4-20 on it and you got a pretty reasonable DMR.
I certainly won't stand in front of one at 300yds!

 

[rally guy]

Precision is relative! A 1-2 MOA rifle is pretty precise for a combat platform. Throw a 4-20 on it and you got a pretty reasonable DMR.
I certainly won't stand in front of one at 300yds!

I myself agree 100% with you. I just don't see any accuracy difference between the two. I just hate the snobbery, it like wen one say a norc m14 accuracy is a crappy 1.5-3 moa but a Springfield with the same accuracy is great! Or wen one says a RFB has crappy 1.5-3 moa and a DD has a great 1 to 3 moa accuracy.

Just to reiterate, I believe the KAC is world class but I just don't see many quantifiable advantage beside the ambi features and brand recognition to the DD and most top tear ar's

 

[Still alive]

I myself agree 100% with you. I just don't see any accuracy difference between the two. I just hate the snobbery, it like wen one say a norc m14 accuracy is a crappy 1.5-3 moa but a Springfield with the same accuracy is great! Or wen one says a RFB has crappy 1.5-3 moa and a DD has a great 1 to 3 moa accuracy.

I concede you make a good point, sir! Well said.
Now this thread will derail to a " My KAC shoots sub MOA and my HK/ Noveske/ LMT shoots...."

 

[mikethebike]

Never heard DD be a nail driver... but never heard KAC was any better! Shure there good but both are desigbe as battel weapons not target shooter so there barrel accuracy reflects that, from what I heard

Caramel was able to achieve some really really good groups with his sr15, wish he could. post those results here again.

thread has officially derailed

 

[Stoner99]

GD7 choose an SR15 KAC. My only question is what barrel length did he finalize on. Lol. ??

 

[Kidd X]

Maybe I'm just a noob, but isn't KAC one of the highest quality AR's money can buy along with Barret, Noveske, BCM, LMT and H&K? I know DD is quality, but I always thought of KAC being out of their league? Isn't that E3 bolt suppose to be the best of best?

Yes KAC makes high end goods, and so does Colt, CC, BCM, LMT, Noveske and DD. All of which are milspec and in the case of KAC some parts are arguably better.

As OST mentioned it's not hard to source a KAC bolt.

If you want to have spare parts then order the bolt from OST just as you'd order a spare for any other AR-15. It really isn't as difficult as we're making it out to be...

Now if we're talking SHTF/End of the world type scenario then remember you can drop a regular bolt into the SR-15 and it will work in a pinch.



A few things that pop into my mind are ambi controls, included BUIS that are arguably the best available on the market, softer and smoother recoil due to the intermediate gas system.

Let's also not forget to mention the E3 bolt as we all seem very concerned with bolts breaking. There hasn't been a reported E3 bolt break with standard use as far as I'm aware... The same cannot be said for a regular AR-15 bolt.

Ordering parts and being able to walk into your local shop for them are quite different. I agree that having spares on hand is the preferred and smart way to do it, but proprietary means proprietary. Should KAC go belly up or change their design you could be left with a system you can't support. The bolt breakage is to be expected at some point. There is also an infinitely greater number of standard bolts in use over E3 bolts. With that there are also a good number of low quality non milspec bolts in service which will and do fail more frequently. Not all bolts are made equally. The intermediate gas system is available from others as well, it's called mid length gas. I know KAC's system is a different length(which means gas tubes are not common) but is approximately the same thing. Ambi controls can he added to any AR except for the bolt catch. None of the ambi controls are necessary, they're all nice to haves. The BUIS are just BUIS, sight are sights. Iron sights are not precision sights and like most irons they are for backup purposes only.

Precision and durability. Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'

Like any other milspec AR...Like the millions in service over the last 50 plus years.

When taken at par, yes. The original question, before my thread went off the rails, was did it justify $1400-1500 extra in price. If it was a matter of picking which one was outright better, it would have been much simpler.

The answer is no the additional cost is not justified.

Caramel was able to achieve some really really good groups with his sr15, wish he could. post those results here again.

thread has officially derailed

Results from the bench, slow fire, with premium ammo I'm betting. For the action shooting crowd who usually run bulk cheap FMJ ammo from offhand or other non standard positions while under the clock, none of the results means a hill of beans. We are talking about AR15 rifles, they're a service rifle that offer service rifle levels of performance out of the box. The crazy selection of aftermarket everything allows a person to make a precision rig out of a rifle that was never designed to be one.

 

[rally guy]

Caramel was able to achieve some really really good groups with his sr15, wish he could. post those results here again.

thread has officially derailed

Yep its derail.

Mike just to say I really do respect your opinions, I read it in many post! But come on we all know how great the KAC are, but we also know what they are, a sporting rifle directly base on a top tear service rifle. Not base on a sniper rifle or competition rifle. With that lineage it is not designe to be a 0.5 moa tac driver, none of them are, DDm4, Colt 6920, etc. Some are Dmr inspired and it shows with the barrel and other features but if your buying a service type rifle that's what you get. One might be a 1.5-3 moa one might be a 1 to 2.5 moa but to say one is head and tail above the other is misleading don't you think?

Yes Mr. Caramel might be getting great result with his. I am also confident he his very skilled and have alot of shooting time with all his post. But there is a difference with one going to the range taking is time between shots, letting the barrel cool, eather working up a load or trying out a bunch of premium ammo until you find the one the gun likes and folks who take there ar try 2 or 3 diffrent bulk ammo, finds one that group decent (1.5-2 moa) . Then go to the range to have fun/practice. I dont go to the range to shoot dirt like some other cgn user claim to do, but I don't alway shoot with 30 sec pause on all my guns. I have bolt action for that.

Again KAC great gun! Not a sniper nether are the other former contender the op was referring.

I know I am not helping this derailment you guys but hell am I ever tired of the mine is awsome yours suck crowd! I stop shooting with guys just cause of that! Call it what it is and that's it! Stop looking down on other . Op chose the KAC cause it what got him more exited, I get that, its a great gun but lets not say it can light a match from 600 yard prone shot with irons from under water in a snow storm

 

[GD7]

GD7 choose an SR15 KAC. My only question is what barrel length did he finalize on. Lol. ??

14.5", with the M-LOK handguard. No doubt someone will list a bunch of reasons why I should have gone with a longer barrel, but I am very happy with my choice. Lots of Americans would be happy just to have the option at no extra cost!

Everyone can feel free to derail to their hearts content, I made my choice lol I just get tired of the bickering that's so common here these days. We're here because we have a common hobby/interest, I just don't see why we end up at each others throats so often. Feels like everyone is under a lot of stress all the time in the last year or so.

 

[bongoz]

The intermediate gas system is available from others as well, it's called mid length gas. I know KAC's system is a different length(which means gas tubes are not common) but is approximately the same thing. Ambi controls can he added to any AR except for the bolt catch. None of the ambi controls are necessary, they're all nice to haves. The BUIS are just BUIS, sight are sights. Iron sights are not precision sights and like most irons they are for backup purposes only.

The Intermediate gas system is not to be confused with mid length.

An Intermediate gas system is somewhere between mid length and rifle length. This ends up with a rifle that is still reliable with a shorter barrel while also having noticeably smoother recoil when compared to a mid length gas systems. I should mention Noveske has made a few custom guns using this KAC gas system in the past. They may have their own intermediate system now.

Ambi controls can be added to any AR-15. However the great benefit with the KAC are the included upgrades such as the ambi controls and quality BUIS. You could take another average joe AR-15 and dump a bunch of $$$ into it and end up with nearly the same thing. But both end up costing similar amounts. Then the KAC is just cooler to have

Are the benefits worth $1400? For me yes but I'm not going to go out and buy a dozen AR-15's. I'm happy with one or two. If I wanted more I'd probably look for some cheaper options.

 

[Stoner99]

14.5", with the M-LOK handguard. No doubt someone will list a bunch of reasons why I should have gone with a longer barrel, but I am very happy with my choice. Lots of Americans would be happy just to have the option at no extra cost!

Everyone can feel free to derail to their hearts content, I made my choice lol I just get tired of the bickering that's so common here these days. We're here because we have a common hobby/interest, I just don't see why we end up at each others throats so often. Feels like everyone is under a lot of stress all the time in the last year or so.

I own that barrel length as well. A fine choice. Good stuff.

 

[rally guy]

Great choice with the 14.5!

 

[yohann160]

14.5", with the M-LOK handguard. No doubt someone will list a bunch of reasons why I should have gone with a longer barrel, but I am very happy with my choice. Lots of Americans would be happy just to have the option at no extra cost!

Everyone can feel free to derail to their hearts content, I made my choice lol I just get tired of the bickering that's so common here these days. We're here because we have a common hobby/interest, I just don't see why we end up at each others throats so often. Feels like everyone is under a lot of stress all the time in the last year or so.

Is that the dimpled barrel? Very cool!

 

[greentips]

Is that the dimpled barrel? Very cool!

i don't think they made dimpled barrels anymore. The dimpled barrel is kinda like a one run wonder with the URX3.

 

[mikethebike]

Yep its derail.

Mike just to say I really do respect your opinions, I read it in many post! But come on we all know how great the KAC are, but we also know what they are, a sporting rifle directly base on a top tear service rifle. Not base on a sniper rifle or competition rifle. With that lineage it is not designe to be a 0.5 moa tac driver, none of them are, DDm4, Colt 6920, etc. Some are Dmr inspired and it shows with the barrel and other features but if your buying a service type rifle that's what you get. One might be a 1.5-3 moa one might be a 1 to 2.5 moa but to say one is head and tail above the other is misleading don't you think?

Yes Mr. Caramel might be getting great result with his. I am also confident he his very skilled and have alot of shooting time with all his post. But there is a difference with one going to the range taking is time between shots, letting the barrel cool, eather working up a load or trying out a bunch of premium ammo until you find the one the gun likes and folks who take there ar try 2 or 3 diffrent bulk ammo, finds one that group decent (1.5-2 moa) . Then go to the range to have fun/practice. I dont go to the range to shoot dirt like some other cgn user claim to do, but I don't alway shoot with 30 sec pause on all my guns. I have bolt action for that.

Again KAC great gun! Not a sniper nether are the other former contender the op was referring.

I know I am not helping this derailment you guys but hell am I ever tired of the mine is awsome yours suck crowd! I stop shooting with guys just cause of that! Call it what it is and that's it! Stop looking down on other . Op chose the KAC cause it what got him more exited, I get that, its a great gun but lets not say it can light a match from 600 yard prone shot with irons from under water in a snow storm

thats true dont expect a hammer to do the job of a wrench.

i dont own an sr15 myself, im a colt or noveske only guy, but thats just personal pref.

 

[Kidd X]

The Intermediate gas system is not to be confused with mid length.

An Intermediate gas system is somewhere between mid length and rifle length. This ends up with a rifle that is still reliable with a shorter barrel while also having noticeably smoother recoil when compared to a mid length gas systems. I should mention Noveske has made a few custom guns using this KAC gas system in the past. They may have their own intermediate system now.

Ambi controls can be added to any AR-15. However the great benefit with the KAC are the included upgrades such as the ambi controls and quality BUIS. You could take another average joe AR-15 and dump a bunch of $$$ into it and end up with nearly the same thing. But both end up costing similar amounts. Then the KAC is just cooler to have

Are the benefits worth $1400? For me yes but I'm not going to go out and buy a dozen AR-15's. I'm happy with one or two. If I wanted more I'd probably look for some cheaper options.

I haven't seen the numbers to prove that the intermediate length is leaps ahead of the mid length as far as "smoother" goes but I haven't shot a mid length yet that wasn't as soft as any rifle length. Doesn't really matter either way.

An Ambi mag release will cost you $100, an ambi charge handle $150 and a BAD lever if you want it is $45. That's less than $300 to achieve the same thing which puts you ahead by $1100. A DD M4 V7 LW 16" with MLOK hand guard is also a 1/2 lbs lighter than the KAC.(0.35 lbs lighter if you look at the gov profile DD M4 V7). Looking cooler is a personal goal I guess. I don't pay much attention to what others think of my guns but if that's important to you then the KAC has the wow factor.