The Canadian Market for SxS's

[VictoryXC]

Numerous threads touch on the value of SxS's in Canada and where it might be headed, trends, demand for different price points, supply, how it compares to the US market, what if the use of lead shot is further restricted, etc.

I thought a thread on this topic could be interesting and of value. Comments?

 

[gunsaholic]

One would think a further restriction on lead shot would kill the old double gun market unless a much less expensive non toxic shot comes on the market. Mind you, for most upland hunting one doesn't usually fire that many shells in an outing anyhow so that cost likely wouldn't be a huge factor. But it would be enough of a factor to lower the values if you are a seller. That being said, is there not talk (is it in the US) where they are actually thinking of allowing the use of lead shot for waterfowl for these vintage guns?

 

[birdbuff]

I've found it rather frustrating that most gun shops don't have a wider selection of SxS. I've been looking for a 410 sxs single trigger for awhile. It seems to me most shops carry the basic brands most people flock to. The issue arises when you want something different, then you have to do your research, and even then it's tough to buy something without shouldering it first. It will just end up on the EE with a disappointed seller. There will be those that will argue we do not have the population to offer more varieties of firearms for sale as a business perspective. Even then there are connoisseurs among us. House brand is ok, until you get bored of it.

 

[ninepointer]

SKB's seem to have almost doubled price over the last 10 years.

 

[canvasback]

SKB's seem to have almost doubled price over the last 10 years.

It took a while for people to figure out just how good that gun is.

 

[Sharps45-70]

I've found it rather frustrating that most gun shops don't have a wider selection of SxS. I've been looking for a 410 sxs single trigger for awhile. It seems to me most shops carry the basic brands most people flock to. The issue arises when you want something different, then you have to do your research, and even then it's tough to buy something without shouldering it first. It will just end up on the EE with a disappointed seller. There will be those that will argue we do not have the population to offer more varieties of firearms for sale as a business perspective. Even then there are connoisseurs among us. House brand is ok, until you get bored of it.

I agree completely with this. I have had nothing but problems when it comes to finding guns in my area. The local Cabelas sometimes, and I mean SOMETIMES gets in a double or two. When they do, they are completely trashed, mislabeled (I saw a Remington 1894 labelled as a 1905 for some reason, and an LC No 3 labelled as "vintage double"), and desperately overpriced. An example? That 1894 I mentioned...'A' grade, ZERO bluing, cracked stocks and bent down bottom rib with cut back barrels. Asking price? $2500.

It doesn't get much better at the family stores either, I won't name names, but one had a nice Army and Navy in a basic grade. 12, 2 1/2" Maybe 30% engraving coverage and 40% blue left. It was nice, but the stock was cracked pretty badly at the wrist. Nice, but not $1800 nice.

I guess my point it, the only doubles here are Stoegers and the odd CZ, which are OK, but not for me personally. The vintage guns are often Belgian knock-offs beat to hell, Parker Trojans beat to hell, and all at over the top prices. Nothing actually for sale in person is very nice for some reason...or at least that's how it seems.

So far, all of my doubles have been bought over the internet. And I would like to shoulder before I buy, but nothing it worth shouldering.

 

[canvasback]

To birdbuff and sharps.....I'd offer the following advice. Be patient and yet determined.

In the first few years of my infatuation with SxS I could not believe how hard it was to find potential purchases. As noted, any gun store I typically walked into had a miserable selection and pricing was always wacky. But I kept digging. Used the internet to learn. Made a few friends who were already knee deep in things and now, I see more guns I'd like to buy than I could possibly afford. Exactly the type of pre war Brit, Continental and American guns I could hardly ever find 12 years. Half of the guns in my safe I really value were guns that never came onto the open market. Someone knew it was something I might like so I got a call or an email.

But if you want to find good ones, at a proper price, then it takes some effort and some time to build up your knowledge of where to be looking.

 

[Brutus]

Not quite sure if there is enough new market interest to sustain this.
Use the pass around of Winchester Repeating Arms as one similar example.
Hard to make money off of a quality made firearm that will last through literally decades of field use.
Lots of fine shotguns out there with oodles of bird killing/clay smashing years left in them IMHO.

 

[Ashcroft]

This is a subject dear to my heart. I have been using and collecting side by side doubles for more than 20 years and I buy sell and trade constantly to try to improve the quality of my modest collection. I use my guns - all of them. I have no safe queens. When I shot registered trap for years I used a series of dedicated trap over/under doubles and singles, going through 7000-8000 rounds a year but other than waterfowl all my hunting has been with my side by sides. For waterfowl I have used a Browning Gold Camo 3 1/2" gun for years and that's all it's used for. What I see in this field in the last 20-25 years.......
20-25 years ago, before the internet ( yes, no google, no on line businesses ) prices in general for doubles were very low. New side by side sales had plummeted and most makers were moving away from them. Lots of quality older guns in some areas ( as well as lots of old clapped out Belgian clunkers) but mostly they had been put aside for modern repeaters and few people appreciated or wanted the old girls. Enter Double Gun Journal, Shooting Sportsman, articles and books by respected authors all praising the qualities of these fine guns. Then Bam! Internet! Guns International!Guns America! Dozens and dozens of businesses, mostly in the US springing up, buying quality doubles in Britain and Europe and Canada and advertising them with mouth watering pictures at affordable ( sometimes) prices. Demand went up, availability of fresh guns dried up, prices went up. A lot of fine guns came on the market suddenly during the financial meltdown of 2008-2009 and prices nosedived in the US. In Canada prices lagged going up and really didn't sag much in 08-09 either, but at that time our dollar was par or higher and some nice pieces migrated north of the border. Since then the American economy has recovered, our dollar has shrunk miserably and high quality, high condition doubles are at their highest prices yet as the supply is drying up. I can give numerous examples of specific guns that I seriously researched and priced 8,9,10 years ago that are showing up now at double the price. And they're selling. Auction prices mostly show estimates, only the sold prices show the true value of any gun.
In Canada I see prices on these guns pretty flat in most areas for the last ten years. Those that were well priced have sold, those that were overpriced are still for sale, still overpriced, those in poor to average condition or needing expensive work don't sell. An excellent example is Ellwood Epps who five years ago had quite a few quality doubles for sale. The best ones are mostly gone now and not replaced, they were cherry picked and I would bet that a lot of them went south of the border. Similarly, there are Proxy buyers for American clients at all our big gun shows now with lots of $1.30 dollars trolling for the best guns. These guns are getting scarcer on our market every year and when they show up they are gone in a flash. Our prices for the better guns will go up when there isn't enough around any more to satisfy demand. Of course quantities, demand and prices vary around the country but the internet sites of some businesses and of course CGN tend to have a levelling effect. Bottom line, I believe the best time to buy that special gun is now, they aren't going to get cheaper.

 

[ninepointer]

When I inquired at Cabelas in Barrie about the possibility of seeing the Dickinson double over here, they told me there was zero chance. Said one of the western Canadian stores once brought some in and could not move them.

 

[VictoryXC]

When I inquired at Cabelas in Barrie about the possibility of seeing the Dickinson double over here, they told me there was zero chance. Said one of the western Canadian stores once brought some in and could not move them.

This illustrates another point. There are probably very few new SxS's in the 2k to 10k range being sold in Canada each year. From previous threads you hear users mention the odd Aya, F.A.I.R., Beretta, Rizzini, etc. This will also mean a lesser supply of used SxS's on the market in years to come.

 

[Sharps45-70]

To birdbuff and sharps.....I'd offer the following advice. Be patient and yet determined.

In the first few years of my infatuation with SxS I could not believe how hard it was to find potential purchases. As noted, any gun store I typically walked into had a miserable selection and pricing was always wacky. But I kept digging. Used the internet to learn. Made a few friends who were already knee deep in things and now, I see more guns I'd like to buy than I could possibly afford. Exactly the type of pre war Brit, Continental and American guns I could hardly ever find 12 years. Half of the guns in my safe I really value were guns that never came onto the open market. Someone knew it was something I might like so I got a call or an email.

But if you want to find good ones, at a proper price, then it takes some effort and some time to build up your knowledge of where to be looking.

Trust me...I have found this out very quickly. Doesn't stop me from complaining about it though!

In actuality, as much as I wish there was a wide open market, or at least what they have in the US, I enjoy the hunt. Especially getting to know the people in the community!

 

[birdbuff]

I have done a fair amount of research and have contacted numerous retailers. Most retailers I contacted can bring in anything you want for the right price. I don't think getting guns is a big deal you just have to really work for it. The issue is basic selection. Every gun shop should try and carry a good variety. I, like many have complained at a few shops of poor selection, the answer always seems to be the same (supply and demand blah blah etc.) But wow what a selection of Remington 870's out there, lol.

 

[canvasback]

This illustrates another point. There are probably very few new SxS's in the 2k to 10k range being sold in Canada each year. From previous threads you hear users mention the odd Aya, F.A.I.R., Beretta, Rizzini, etc. This will also mean a lesser supply of used SxS's on the market in years to come.

That's assuming the ones in current circulation wear out. LOL

 

[VictoryXC]

This illustrates another point. There are probably very few new SxS's in the 2k to 10k range being sold in Canada each year. From previous threads you hear users mention the odd Aya, F.A.I.R., Beretta, Rizzini, etc. This will also mean a lesser supply of used SxS's on the market in years to come.

That's assuming the ones in current circulation wear out. LOL

Very few of those currently in circulation will ever wear out. The shortage will be caused by a few of you guys who are real hoarders and will never part with any. LOL

 

[VictoryXC]

How about prices in Canada versus the US? I think it was mentioned in another thread that the prices in Canada are about 30% lower than the US. Does that factor in currency? i.e. If a gun is selling for $US 1,000 in the US, what would it sell for in Canada in $C?

 

[brybenn]

Very few of those currently in circulation will ever wear out. The shortage will be caused by a few of you guys who are real hoarders and will never part with any. LOL

The baby boomers are aging. There will once again be a number of fine guns hitting the market. Unfortunately I'm saving for a couple specific double rifles and paying off my first house. I've seen a number of very special double guns come up locally recently and know of many more that will change hands in the years to come as their owners are to the point they can't heft the weight or take the recoil of their 12 gas

 

[Bland]

It is unfortunate that it is not cost effective to bring guns in the $500 to $1500 from the US. Like most of us, I pore over the US sites with longing. Nice 20 gauge L.C. Smith SXS for $650 dollars as an example. I am late to the game as it is only in the last 8 years there was room in the budget for expanding my 'collection'. Why do I prefer an older SXS when there are so many good affordable modern shotguns available? Besides the quick followup shot I just plain like them. The older ones have the personal touch, not an assembly line product. They have a quality that is hard to reproduce without getting into much bigger numbers in today's world, numbers out of the budget of most of us. Dragging a new $2500 gun through a swamp is not an option for me, not in exclusive company there, I am sure. My name Bland was chosen because I owned for a short time a circa 1871 T. Bland and Sons 16 ga SXS. I did not have the expertise to bring her back and traded it to a fellow CGN'er who did, for my 1901 0 grade 12 Ga SXS. He had refurbished it, moved it along to me and gone to work bringing back that very special 16 ga. These are the people who keep these guns alive. Not sure how to explain what it felt like to handle that 140 year old shotgun. She still functioned as she was originally meant to. The hourly rate, if established, on the work he put into that "Elsie" before it came into my possession would not support a shop. There is no 'real' money to be made in today's shotgun world producing new guns at the price point most of us want to pay for a quality hunting firearm. I am the only person in my hunting circles who uses a SXS and hunts over a dog. Lots of hunters around here to choose from as well. We have a nice little gunshop but there will not be a double in there. Nobody is interested. We are a small niche in a beleaguered industry.

 

[Bland]

My collection will ultimately disperse because at present I am the only one in my family with a PAL. Probably one of the more fertile hunting grounds are estate sales. Not sure I appreciated the shot about about not being able to absorb the recoil as we age but could not resist the pun. My titanium shoulder won't rust and can withstand a major recoil .

The baby boomers are aging. There will once again be a number of fine guns hitting the market. Unfortunately I'm saving for a couple specific double rifles and paying off my first house. I've seen a number of very special double guns come up locally recently and know of many more that will change hands in the years to come as their owners are to the point they can't heft the weight or take the recoil of their 12 gas

 

[Brutus]

My collection will ultimately disperse because at present I am the only one in my family with a PAL. Probably one of the more fertile hunting grounds are estate sales. Not sure I appreciated the shot about about not being able to absorb the recoil as we age but could not resist the pun. My titanium shoulder won't rust and can withstand a major recoil .

^This is my fear as well, as I am the only one in my immediate family with PAL. But lately, the new SIL does have a few gun enthusiast friends that seem to be leaving a mark on his current likes/dislikes.
One can only hope this interest will just increase in time.
And it is my sincere wish that at least a few quality small bore rifles and various shotguns, stay within the family as multi generational heirlooms.
I really want that Parkhurst antique 10 gauge coach gun, that had a recent refinish from Nick Makinson, to stay in our family too!

Cheers folks