Antique handguns energy

Horilka

Horilka

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So I've been reading old threads and enjoyed arguments if favour of either bigger calibers or smaller Europeans calibers. And I noticed discussions were mostly in terms of anything except the energy, so I tried to come up with this table.

Original caliber top chart.
1. 7.63 Mauser - 5.6 g (86 gr) FMJ 441 m/s (1,450 ft/s) 545 J (402 ft·lbf)
2. .44 Rus 246 gr (16 g) lead round nose 750 ft/s (230 m/s) 310 ft·lbf (420 J)
3. 7.62 Nagant 6.3 g (97 gr) FMC 327 m/s (1,070 ft/s) 340 J (250 ft·lbf)
4. 455 Webley -------------- 249-290J ??
5. 8mm French 7.8 g (120 gr) 225 m/s (740 ft/s) 196 J (145 ft·lbf)
6. 7.5 Swiss (same for Swedish/Norwegian) 104 gr (7 g) FMJ 220 m/s (720 ft/s) 166.8 J (123.0 ft·lbf)


Reloading rechambered handguns. I don't have any data except I found in some thread, so feel free to share yours.
1. .45 in French 1873 ------------------- 482 J (which places it in 2nd place of chart above)

What is the energy (or speed and projectile weight) for .45 reamed Webleys?
 
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I though FBI research put an end to "stopper" myth for modern, hi energy ammo debates. Basically conclusion was that "no matter cal, matter where you hit". However, with these old girls energy varied greatly so it's worth looking at.

So .45 from Webley I or II would be 354J with 230gr and 725fps.
 
The problem with considering energy only is that as bullet diameter goes up, the surface area of its nose goes by a square factor. That means that it takes a lot more energy for the larger bullet to penetrate its target. I think that bullet placement combined with adequate penetration is what counts.

cheers mooncoon
 
The .45 LC back from the 1870s was originally called for 28 to 40 grains of black powder and a 230 to 255 grain lead bullet. This would have generated a muzzle velocity of up to 1,050 feet per second which is around 624 ft-lbs at the muzzle. Nowadays they're normally loaded for velocities of around 800 to 850 fps, that would give it around 400 ft-lbs at the muzzle.

I think the .45 LC was the most powerful handgun caliber in the world at the time, and it wouldn't be until the .357 magnum came out for it to lose that title.
 
ProudPhoenician said:
The .45 LC back from the 1870s was originally called for 28 to 40 grains of black powder and a 230 to 255 grain lead bullet. This would have generated a muzzle velocity of up to 1,050 feet per second which is around 624 ft-lbs at the muzzle. Nowadays they're normally loaded for velocities of around 800 to 850 fps, that would give it around 400 ft-lbs at the muzzle.

I think the .45 LC was the most powerful handgun caliber in the world at the time, and it wouldn't be until the .357 magnum came out for it to lose that title.
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It was in the cartridge guns, the Walker was the most powerful handgun up until the .357 was created I believe.
 
I fired some original military Swiss model 1882 revolver ammo last year ("7.5mm Swiss Ordnance") which is a 108 grain full metal jacket over 10.1 grains of black powder (I disassembled and measured, twice!) ... what a smokey, dirty, low-powered affair. I'd be surprized if those bullets were doing 700 fps. I reload 100-110 grain lead wadcutters or semi wadcutters from 865 to 900 fps using Trail Boss... much better. :) I don't know, but I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of my handloads!
 
Speaking of antique brass pistol cartridges of the day, I doubt most could best a 38 special of today...
Most large bore C&B's could out perform most of those early cartridges in everything but reloading time.

And I never thought the Keith / OConnor debate could reach the antique forum, but you guys proved me wrong! LOL!
 
An English historian i subscribe to just did a vid on this . It was letters home , most from Officers serving in India during the Indian rebellion . Most went with .36 caliber revolvers and wrote letters home begging any family member to buy them a .44 or .45 caliber revolver and send it right away . The Indians would charge at close range with swords and spears and shooting them with a .36 didn't get the job done while shooting them with a .44 or .45 would dump them . Many officers who had a .36 would leave it back in the barricks and prefer to rely on their sword instead for close in fighting .
 
atr said:
An English historian i subscribe to just did a vid on this . It was letters home , most from Officers serving in India during the Indian rebellion . Most went with .36 caliber revolvers and wrote letters home begging any family member to buy them a .44 or .45 caliber revolver and send it right away . The Indians would charge at close range with swords and spears and shooting them with a .36 didn't get the job done while shooting them with a .44 or .45 would dump them . Many officers who had a .36 would leave it back in the barricks and prefer to rely on their sword instead for close in fighting .
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So Americans were also complaining and as result adopted .45, but then there was a case in Florida(?) where many .45 holes could not stop the man. Scientific researches showed it's really only the matter of where the shot is placed, combined with of target's stamina. Again I'm referring to FBI research, a must read to anyone who's still debating calibers. I've been to strange places and army too, and you won't believe what kind of stupid superstitions ppl with real combat experience have.

Intention of my post was to compare the energy one can get out of antiques. So let's leave caliber/model aside, they more like religion choice.
 
atr said:
An English historian i subscribe to just did a vid on this . It was letters home , most from Officers serving in India during the Indian rebellion . Most went with .36 caliber revolvers and wrote letters home begging any family member to buy them a .44 or .45 caliber revolver and send it right away . The Indians would charge at close range with swords and spears and shooting them with a .36 didn't get the job done while shooting them with a .44 or .45 would dump them . Many officers who had a .36 would leave it back in the barricks and prefer to rely on their sword instead for close in fighting .
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Uh, right.

The Indian Rebellion, also known as the Indian Mutiny, took place in 1857.

I think that you may be confungling your facts with the American fighting the Moros, about 45 years later. Where this DID happen - but with the .38cal revolver, not the .36cal - a BP type. This lead to the adoption of the .45cal semi-auto pistol.

tac
 
Horilka said:
So Americans were also complaining and as result adopted .45, but then there was a case in Florida(?) where many .45 holes could not stop the man. Scientific researches showed it's really only the matter of where the shot is placed, combined with of target's stamina. Again I'm referring to FBI research, a must read to anyone who's still debating calibers. I've been to strange places and army too, and you won't believe what kind of stupid superstitions ppl with real combat experience have.

Intention of my post was to compare the energy one can get out of antiques. So let's leave caliber/model aside, they more like religion choice.
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Addition human factor; Drug induced frenzy?? This fact is missing here.....
 
dan belisle said:
Bigger holes bleed more. Works on game, works on wild Zulu warriors, works on modern miscreants. The FBI used modern fragmenting hollow points, these old girls don't. - dan
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Yep. The prior owner of my muzzleloading .65 Howdah found a table that equated this load to the same energy as the standard 9mm Parabellum cartridge.
So, a dependable piece for up-real-close self defense once maybe twice, that looks darn silly on paper but......
 
tacfoley said:
Uh, right.

The Indian Rebellion, also known as the Indian Mutiny, took place in 1857.

I think that you may be confungling your facts with the American fighting the Moros, about 45 years later. Where this DID happen - but with the .38cal revolver, not the .36cal - a BP type. This lead to the adoption of the .45cal semi-auto pistol.

tac
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No, I think he is accurate with this happening during the Indian Rebellion. 36cal cap and ball pistols were found to be somewhat ineffective, whereas the larger calibers were generally more effective.

But you are correct that history repeated itself for the Americans in the Philippines.

The whole "those that don't learn from history are destined to repeat it" thing came into play.
 
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