Verifier Says my .320 Baby Bulldog is a .328 S&W prohib ?

1898guns

1898guns

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A Provincial (Ontario) LEO Verifier just sent a letter stating that my .320CF Baby Bulldog is prohib, as apparently he managed to somehow come to the conclusion that it is a .328 S&W ? It is currently in their possession.

Going back to what I remember about this revolver, I always believed it fit antique criteria. I know these can be hard to date, and reliance sometimes comes down to proof / inspectors marks; this was clearly of Belgian manufacture and had limited markings on it. I do not believe any markings were taken into consideration in identifying this revolver, especially since the approach of labelling it a .328 S&W was a determining factor.

I know the .32 go/no-go antique discussion had been kicked around for years, but how does the .328 S&W angle fit into the picture.
The revolver does not cycle or index properly, remarks were that it was unable to be tested.

bulldog.jpg
 
Unless you have a double typo in your post, I don't see .328 S&W on the no go list...

A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.
Click to expand...

I bet you had an RCMP letter for that iron didn't you?


That said, I foresaw this type of thing happening as the next step in the systematic persecution of lawful firearms owners.
This is exactly what myself and others preached against for so long as the "back door" registry of antiques.
The first time they asked for my PAL # was the last time I called.
 
No I did not have a letter for it, but I also did not have a letter for the 18 other antiques that the same verifier determined to be antiques, some being handguns. Yes .328 S&W is what they wrote as the caliber that they determined it to be. The same verifier is also withholding my Webley MK1**, calls it a Mk V.

I do know at least one person that has a letter for their .320, so the provisions for that designation does (did) exist.... are they still writing letters for .320 "European" or whatever terminology can be attached to a .320CF - that is another question.
 
afaik there are no provisions for calibers that are allowed, only for those that aren't, as I posted above. That caliber designation is not listed, so of itself does not preclude it from antique status.
As we have seen in recent history, laws don't need to be changed, just their interpretation by the powers that be.
They could easily claim that 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, encompass the .328 S&W.

Sounds like an expensive argument to get into and even more so to win.

How did your antiques come to be in the hands of a verifier?

I ask, because other than the CBSA folks who admitted them to Canada at the border, no one ever verified any of the antiques I had.

Bad situation. Wishing you the best.
 
I think you could start by asking for the dimensions of the 328 S&W cartridge and the same for the 320 bulldog. If you are lucky, the two calibers are not interchangeable or at least the S&W will not properly fit your gun. Since they have the gun, I suspect the answer is that the prohib cartridge does fit the chamber

I think you also need to find out what the distinguishing characteristics are that separate the Webley Mk1 and Mk V

cheers mooncoon
 
A Webley Mk I and Mk V are VERY different, (very very very different).

The grip of a Mk I is a bird head shape the Mk V is not even similar to that

The Mk V has an entirely different frame and it was designed to handle smokeless powder instead of black powder, the cylinder is larger and thicker

The differences are extremely obvious and not even slightly subtle.

One has to wonder how good the verifier is if they can't tell the difference
 
I recently had a verifier misidentify an antique pistol as a reproduction. Turned out to be fairly simple to sort out. Much to my surprise.

The bull dog might be a bit challenging to deal with but track down cartridge dimensions as mentioned. I'm not sure what the 328 S&W is but that should have no bearing as it's not on the list anyway.

With the Webley point out the distinguishing features to them. Patent dates, grip shape, Serial number range etc. Even better if someone can check out the FRT number and description.

Polite but persistent. Stressful situation to be in. Hope it's resolved in your favour.
 
328 S&W Cartridge I never seen or even herd of that cartridge google comes up with 0 hits so I ask does it even exist and if so when was it introduced?
Get your guns to a real verifier if you must have them verified.
ask for a second verifier to confirm what this guys saying.
The Webley MKI is the only webley with that hump in the birds head grip at the top of the grip all are pre 1898.
all MKI webleys even MKI** webleys are antique its right in the RCMP FRT description under MKII FRT report.
Tho Webley MKVs had a birds head grip like a MKII they did not have that hump in the frame above the grip and the frame should be marked MKI anyway.

Heres a list below of the 32s from a detailed page on handgun cartridges I see no 328 S&W


32 ACP (7.62mm) H 0.309 0.68 0.254 0.336 - 0.336 1.03 SP 1899
32 Long B 0.317 0.82 0.369 0.318 - 0.321 1.35 S 1875
32 S&W B 0.312 0.61 0.375 0.334 - 0.335 0.92 SP 1878
32 S&W Auto D 0.312 0.678 0.335 0.334 - 0.334 - Bx 1924
32 S&W Long B 0.312 0.93 0.375 0.335 - 0.335 1.27 SP 1903
32 Colt Police (NP) B 0.314 0.915 0.372 0.335 - 0.339 - Bx 1903
32 H&R / 32 M&H Long B 0.312 0.885 0.375 0.337 - 0.337 1.225 SP 1884
32 H&R Magnum B 0.312 1.08 0.371 0.333 - 0.333 1.35 SP 1984
32 M&H B 0.313 1.08 0.372 0.332 - 0.335 1.31 SP 1883
32 Webley B Same as 320 Rev - See 320 Revolver - - - -
32 Long Colt B 0.313 0.912-1.13 0.374 0.318 - 0.318 1.26 SP 1875
32 Short Colt B 0.313 0.650 0.377 0.318 - 0.318 0.96 SP 1875
32 Protector B 0.295 0.365 0.350 0.310 - 0.315 - SP Late 1880's
32 NAA C 0.320 0.678 0.371 0.327 0.371 0.379 0.922 - 2002
320 Revolver B 0.317 0.62 0.350 0.320 - 0.322 0.90 B 1870
320 Long Revolver B 0.317 0.65-0.81 0.377 0.316 - 0.318 - B 1882
32-20 Win/
32 WCF A 0.312 1.315 0.405 0.326 0.342 0.353 1.59 S 1882
32-44 S&W
 
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a major problem is that the guns are apparently in the hands of the police, if I read the original post correctly. If so, getting a second verification will probably be extremely difficult. Alternately the LEO verifier may only be someone contracted by the local police to verify guns and hopefully whoever has the guns currently will permit a second opinion

cheers mooncoon
 
Well the 328 S&W ctg must be really rare since it is not listed in any authoritative or other ctg publication.
IMHO it reflects on the quality of the verifiers knowledge.
 
Interesting reading.

Apparently, in the hands of a LEO verifier:

- a .455 Webley Mk. 1 can become a Webley Mark V.
or
- a proven Mk. 1 Webley could falsely be declared to actually be chambered in .45 ACP.

In other words, whatever nonsense is convenient to prevent antique status.
 
WRENCHGOD said:
Mine is still active.
Click to expand...
Still active ? Does CFC notify you ? The reason I ask is that I was a verifier way back for our club (3 clubs and many years ago). I still have my "Approved Verifier" number and card but have not done anything. Years ago they used to mail us updated CD's on FRT.....but have not recieved anything in ages.
 
deckerhead said:
Still active ? Does CFC notify you ? The reason I ask is that I was a verifier way back for our club (3 clubs and many years ago). I still have my "Approved Verifier" number and card but have not done anything. Years ago they used to mail us updated CD's on FRT.....but have not recieved anything in ages.
Click to expand...

You need to get hold of the verifiersnetwork and you # is still good at the verifiers network to get the current disk
 
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She is still there, they would rather you use the online tool. The powers that bee are trying to do away with the disks. If you don't really need offline access the online one is more current anyway. It is invite only so you have to call her and she will send you the link.
 
1898guns said:
A Provincial (Ontario) LEO Verifier just sent a letter stating that my .320CF Baby Bulldog is prohib, as apparently he managed to somehow come to the conclusion that it is a .328 S&W ? It is currently in their possession.

Going back to what I remember about this revolver, I always believed it fit antique criteria. I know these can be hard to date, and reliance sometimes comes down to proof / inspectors marks; this was clearly of Belgian manufacture and had limited markings on it. I do not believe any markings were taken into consideration in identifying this revolver, especially since the approach of labelling it a .328 S&W was a determining factor.

I know the .32 go/no-go antique discussion had been kicked around for years, but how does the .328 S&W angle fit into the picture.
The revolver does not cycle or index properly, remarks were that it was unable to be tested.

bulldog.jpg
Click to expand...

That caliber is not on prohibited list.

A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.
Click to expand...

So, you need to file an appeal or apply for judicial review and highlight your side of the story, e.g. it is .320 Revolver = not listed caliber = antique. Police opinion that it is 328 S&W = not listed caliber = antique.
 
Just a thought.. If it is Belgian mfg, it may one of many Bulldog types, unless u can actually pin down the mfg. If so, it may actually be chambered as 8mm Lebel. Often confused with the 32 S&W, they are in fact different, altho the 32 S&W can be fired from the 8mm Lebel the case bulges and accuracy is non existent. Some Bulldog types such as the Charles Clement, chambered in 8mm Lebel are classified as Antique but then again they are also classified as Prohib, depending on date of manufacture. The only .320 Rev CF I saw were Prohibited.. Good luck in your fight
dB
 
1898's Antique MK1** most likely has either 1914 or 1915 stamped near the **, indicating the year the cylinder and barrel were replaced with stronger steel during the rush in to WWI. The original receiver still legally maintains the revolver as an antique. The Webley Mk V was manufactured during those same war years. The verifier needs to be bothered to do more study and told to ignore those date stamping. With the recent steep rise in price of antique Webleys, that revolver is likely worth significantly over $2000, so don't abandon it, or allow it to be registered as a 'restricted'. Good luck.
 
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