Wrong primer compensation

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IMR4320

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I'm loading 12 ga 2-3/4" shot shells for 00 buckshots and by a mistake got wrong primers. The manual calls for Winchester 209 in combination with HS-6 but I got CCI 209 Magnum primers. The manual called for this primer for 1 oz slugs but not for buckshot. Is it possible to still use this magnum primer but with reduced powder charge ?
Thanks
 
Someone with more knowledge than me will hopefully chime in, but I suspect neither you nor your rifle is going to notice any difference in performance between CCI 209 and CCI 209M primers.

I don't think you have to reduce the powder charge: the primer's contribution to the peak chamber pressure at firing time should be negligible in a shotgun IMO. It might make a difference for shooting a precision rifle at 800m or in competition like F-class or in a railgun, but for a shotgun spreading its buckshot ahead? I just don't see it making a difference.
 
Grawfr said:
Someone with more knowledge than me will hopefully chime in, but I suspect neither you nor your rifle is going to notice any difference in performance between CCI 209 and CCI 209M primers.

I don't think you have to reduce the powder charge: the primer's contribution to the peak chamber pressure at firing time should be negligible in a shotgun IMO. It might make a difference for shooting a precision rifle at 800m or in competition like F-class or in a railgun, but for a shotgun spreading its buckshot ahead? I just don't see it making a difference.
Click to expand...

Just a side note. Shotgun loads are not as forgiving as rifle loads. Especially when using HS-6.

Read this before giving more shotgun primer advice. http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm
 
I recall doing a test while at CIL. Customer complained our ammo blew up his gun. The balance of the ammo in his box was loaded with the correct powder (Red Dot) and the powder charge was about right.

I made up some rounds with 50% more powder. (I wanted to go double, but at double I could not get the shells to crimp.) The 50% extra loads shot just fine. They developed higher pressure, higher velocity and more kick, but nothing close to what we would be concerned about so far as damaging a gun.

From time to time I have deliberately blown up guns or shot guns with barrel obstructions. Usually the first attempt fails, and I have to try harder.

The last attempt was a single shot 12 ga. I could not blow it up, and then when I tried to blow the barrel with a variety of obstructions (including a rather large bolt jammed in the muzzle) - nothing happened.

I am not saying "Don't be careful."" But don't lose sleep if you use a different primer.

BTW A good way to blow up a rifle on the first attempt is to substitute a ball pistol powder (296) for a case full of ball rifle powder (Win760). I have seen 4 rifles blow to pieces with that mistake - but I saw one survive. The brass case vaporized.
 
yomomma said:
Just a side note. Shotgun loads are not as forgiving as rifle loads. Especially when using HS-6.

Read this before giving more shotgun primer advice. http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm
Click to expand...

Very interesting read, and Sleeper's also.

CCI-209 1232 fps 9,650 PSI
CCI-209M 1248 fps 10,460 PSI

An increase of 1.3% in muzzle velocity and 8.3% in chamber pressure. SAAMI says that for 2¾-inch 12-gauge loads, the maximum allowable pressure is 11,500 psi, with a mean average of 19,800 psi proof loads.

You're right, it makes more difference than I thought, but not enough to be dangerous. Crimping makes even more difference, apparently. Thanks for the info, Yomomma.
 
Ganderite said:
I recall doing a test while at CIL. Customer complained our ammo blew up his gun. The balance of the ammo in his box was loaded with the correct powder (Red Dot) and the powder charge was about right.

I made up some rounds with 50% more powder. (I wanted to go double, but at double I could not get the shells to crimp.) The 50% extra loads shot just fine. They developed higher pressure, higher velocity and more kick, but nothing close to what we would be concerned about so far as damaging a gun.

From time to time I have deliberately blown up guns or shot guns with barrel obstructions. Usually the first attempt fails, and I have to try harder.

The last attempt was a single shot 12 ga. I could not blow it up, and then when I tried to blow the barrel with a variety of obstructions (including a rather large bolt jammed in the muzzle) - nothing happened.

I am not saying "Don't be careful."" But don't lose sleep if you use a different primer.

BTW A good way to blow up a rifle on the first attempt is to substitute a ball pistol powder (296) for a case full of ball rifle powder (Win760). I have seen 4 rifles blow to pieces with that mistake - but I saw one survive. The brass case vaporized.
Click to expand...

Sleeper's article seems to mirror your experiences. That guy also had a hard time actually blowing up shotgun barrels.

Mind you, that powder substitution mistake you're talking about... OUCH! I can see how it would cause a major explosion, aye! :sok2
 
One could surmise that the shotgun primer itself contributes to the combustion pressure, rather than just serving as the deflagration kernel. That extra 1000 psi may not blow up the gun, but certainly would contribute to increased recoil and, over time, wear on the action.
 
I think I'm getting pretty good idea here what to do with those primers. I'll reduce the powder charge by 10% and see what happens and if circumstances allow, crank it back up a little.
Thanks for all the good info guys, all good reading.
 
Grawfr said:
Sleeper's article seems to mirror your experiences. That guy also had a hard time actually blowing up shotgun barrels.

Mind you, that powder substitution mistake you're talking about... OUCH! I can see how it would cause a major explosion, aye! :sok2
Click to expand...

Who said the powder substitution was a mistake?? Lol

My favorite part is "The brass case was vaporized." I wonder what sort of pressure and temps are required for brass to skip the liquid phase... i just tried to find some info that would help provide an answer to that, but it seems phase diagrams for alloys are confusing, and its hard to calculate because different alloys with have varying melting/boiling points, as well as heats of vaporization ect. (Man I'm such a nerd sometimes lol)
 
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Pressure was well north of 100,000 psi. The inside of the bolt was brass plated.

It was a Swing action. A 308 case full of Nobel Pistol #2 instead of Rifle #2. (Like using Unique instead of 3031) The salesman told the newbie that they were out of Rifle #2, but they had Pistol #2.

The rifle and barrel were undamaged. The Swing is a massive action compared to most.
 
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