Modern Varmint What IF?

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I don't own an MV and likely will never have the chance, but I can imagine a bit of a speed bump with this plan...


Let's say I was a life long Mercedes fan, and finally got the funds together to buy my dream car ABC AMG. I'm super proud of my new car and the only guy in town that has one. But then Mercedes decides to release a budget version of the ABC AMG. And they decide to name it: the ABC AMG... because they know the name sells. So now, all my neighbors start buying them, and you see them on every corner. Their owners proudly proclaim that they own a coveted ABC AMG. But now I'm left disillusioned with my purchase. As I tell anyone about MY car, I feel the need to explain the history and superiority of my car, but no one cares cuz it's just another ABC AMG like those they see all the time.

End result: next car's a Beamer. The customer that was a life long brand fan and had the money to further the brand, walks away.



I guess all I'm trying to say is: If you go through with this budget "MV"... Don't call it an MV. Allow the fans of the MV to keep their "prestige" or whatever. If you're going to release a budget rifle, don't try to capitalize on the popularity of the MV name, at the expense of your most loyal base. Give it a new name. But for the love of god just don't call it the Modern Spartan!

My 2 cents.
 
Are gun guys like car guys tho? I went from a modded 135i to a 6.2L supercharged CTS-V because I wanted an upgrade in performance and 4 doors for more whores lol jk. But your car analogy makes no sense becsuse the M line or AMG line are performance cars. Not everyone needs 500hp to go from A to B. Some just want a nice car to drive that isnt going to break the bank on fuel and insurance. Like the MV/MH owners "Oh it only works with certain mags/ammo/if the sun is exactly half past 12. The majority of people that want these rifles want it to plink with. The only thing that restricts my car purchases is cost unlike guns in Canada. So you could start with a basic MV and swap parts to make it that high end rifle over time. I really don't think gun owners are that petty "damn I paid $4000 for my MV to be one of the first to own it and now they offer a cheaper more basic model with less features and quality for less money. F those guys" the only thing that really sets the MV apart from an AR is its status. Toe to toe I'm sure there are hundreds of out of the box ARs for half the cost of less that would out perform the MV in a heartbeat. The true cost of this rifle is you're paying for that NR status. If it wasn't NR it wouldn't be close to $4000.
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
Can we please get this thread back on the rails? Some useful responses would be appreciated in order to help us decide which way to proceed.

To recap, we are asking if dropping the match grade barrel to a milspec type barrel and captured buffer to a conventional buffer and spring that would result in a price drop of our Modern varmint rifles by $500.00 to $600.00 would make the rifle affordable enough for more folks to own one?

These 2 changes would be the only changes we undertook.
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No. That's basically a 2800$ AR180b. Not a chance.
 
With all due respect you need to make the product competitive with what other business may soon provide. Your product is better than most but I can't justify paying an extra $1000 for it. Maybe $500 more tops. I suggest if you can cut cost and focus on pumping rifles out so that your brand name is seen more often, it may help tremendously for business growth.

It's up to you to balance profitability and quantity sold. With the suggested $3500 price, I'm sure you can do a way better job streamlining your process. I mean.. how do other companies sell theirs so much cheaper and still are able to keep the company running?

Also consider if you ever produce NR AR-type rifles cheaply ($2000?), not only will you take the AR market share, but also all the XCR, ACR, Keltec, Swiss arms etc's market. After all 90% of us would just wish to have an NR AR that's affordable, and be done with it. Any company smart enough to see this will win at the end. Not all of us care about sub-moa accuracies, just a rifle that goes bang reliably and is 3moa is more than enough if it's cheap.

To be honest I'm an engineer, my family manufactures CNC machines overseas. If no one is providing AR type NR rifles in the next little while, maybe it's a calling for me to take this on :) (joking, but sorta..)

Anyway I would be in line to buy two at most $2500, but not any more than that.
 
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PinaKaleada said:
With all due respect you need to make the product competitive with what other business may soon provide. Your product is better than most but I can't justify paying an extra $1000 for it. Maybe $500 more tops. I suggest if you can cut cost and focus on pumping rifles out so that your brand name is seen more often, it may help tremendously for business growth.

It's up to you to balance profitability and quantity sold. With the suggested $3500 price, I'm sure you can do a way better job streamlining your process. I mean.. how do other companies sell theirs so much cheaper and still are able to keep the company running?

Also consider if you ever produce NR AR-type rifles cheaply ($2000?), not only will you take the AR market share, but also all the XCR, ACR, Keltec, Swiss arms etc's market. After all 90% of us would just wish to have an NR AR that's affordable, and be done with it. Any company smart enough to see this will win at the end. Not all of us care about sub-moa accuracies, just a rifle that goes bang reliably and is 3moa is more than enough if it's cheap.

To be honest I'm an engineer, my family manufactures CNC machines overseas. If no one is providing AR type NR rifles in the next little while, maybe it's a calling for me to take this on :) (joking, but sorta..)

Anyway I would be in line to buy two at most $2500, but not any more than that.
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I would estimate that one big price difference between your bargain ar and the MV is the lower/upper receiver. One is a forge upper/lower that is mass produce by a couple of forges for all major manufacturers all using the same casting. Atrs ar using a proprietary built in house upper/lower that are machine out of billet and are of a different designe then an ar15. There is a big price difference between a mass produce receiver that might see over 10 000 units per year and a machine billet that might see 100-200 unit a year.

Just a guess
 
PinaKaleada said:
I had that thought too. But aren't billet uppers and lowers also made at quite a cheap price as well? Different of the receiver part won't be a $500 difference cost wise.
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All depend on volume.

Il be honnest I know no numbers here. But for argument sake, lets say one manufacturer want to produce a proprietary designe by himself. Then he has to invest in cnc machines, the cost of said machine will get rolled in the product they are selling.

So if one manufacturer manifactures billet ar receiver and sells 2 000 units a year and one sells 200 a year well the price rolled in the product will be significantly higher in the lower output outfit.
 
That is one way to price the item, but in practice it won't work if your pricing is based using the 200 sold to cover the machine cost vs using 20000 units to cover cost. That would mean there's a 100x times (simplified) price difference. It doesn't make much sense.

Another way of recovering cost and make money is make sure your item DOES sell. What I proposed for them is decreasing the price so that there is still profit, but you dominate the market with these NR AR, so that people looking at guns like Tavor's, famae, xcr acr and apc would buy this instead. I buy expensive NR guns solely because I can't own a NR AR. If they can satisfy this, I have investment in these NR guns that I would gladly sell and use the funds for NR ARs in various configurations.
 
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rally guy said:
I would estimate that one big price difference between your bargain ar and the MV is the lower/upper receiver. One is a forge upper/lower that is mass produce by a couple of forges for all major manufacturers all using the same casting. Atrs ar using a proprietary built in house upper/lower that are machine out of billet and are of a different designe then an ar15. There is a big price difference between a mass produce receiver that might see over 10 000 units per year and a machine billet that might see 100-200 unit a year.

Just a guess
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Yes, the question is between hand produced and mass produced. Even if all parts were free, I doubt ATRS could economically produce and test their MVs for the price of a cheap AR.

But switching to mass production, cutting corners on quality and ordering large batches would cut cost to some extent. I don't believe there's a market for 2000 MV at 2800$ in the next 2 years, but I'd bet my lunch that there's a market for 2000 standard-quality black NR rifles at 1000$ in the next year or so. That's why I believe if someone comes up with a functionning AR180b at 1000$, just about any other NR rifle project out there is DOA, except high-end such as the current MV and bulpups, which are inherently different.

I have absolutely no doubt that if ATRS sent large contracts (2000+ units) for parts for lower quality MVs (standard barrels, cheaper furnitures, maybe cheaper trigger), the price could be substantially reduced. Even if some components have to stay the same, larger orders usually contribute to lower prices. A side bonus is that any component shared with the MH and MV would benefit from lower upstream prices For example, an order of 3000 timney triggers would probably cost less per unit than an order for 300 units, even if it's the same part, and savings would also apply to MH and MV triggers.

The downside is ATRS would need a couple millions in financing, tied into that single project for a couple years before any payout ensues. Not sure their back is strong enough to carry that kind of debt.
 
ATRS By the looks of this thread you have generated a high level of interest. That being said when you read though it most people have a hard time understanding your prospective on the matter and don't comprehend your reasoning for not wanting to make certain changes. Everyone wants what they want and expect you to cater specifically to them regardless of the potential cost and or concequences to you and everyone else that has already, or may potentially purchase your product. Is it that hard for people to accept what the manufacturer is willing to produce and then make a decision whether or not that product is for them?

That being said, as a proud owner of a MV I don't think 5 or 6 hundred dollars is enough of a price difference to make up for what you will be lacking by not getting the JP captured buffer and a quality barrel. I gladly paid your price for a quality firearm that no other company was willing to offer and am happy I supported a Canadian company.

My advice is don't taint a good thing by making a lesser quality product just to try and please everyone because in the end you never will. If you go through with this I'm sure you will sell quite a few of them but I can already hear the people bi###ing about how it is no better than what they already have.

You already offer a bare bones version which in my opinion is still better than our other available options. If people can afford a cheaped down version of the MV at xcr or a tavor prices I'm sure they can make a couple other sacrifices in life so they can afford what you already have to offer.

To all the people who want a cheap rifle to shoot cheap ammo, that's not what this is and we already have many options available to us that will fill that role.
 
If it was $2500 and I could just go pick it up I prob would have bought one...I dont want to wait to have it built and I dont want to pay more than $3000 for a 223.
 
How about changing the basic handguard to a in-house made one? just M-LOK slots all around, no rail. Would that lower the cost as well?
That way people dont have to upgrade to another expensive handguard for accessories down the road.
 
zhou1ping said:
How about changing the basic handguard to a in-house made one? just M-LOK slots all around, no rail. Would that lower the cost as well?
That way people dont have to upgrade to another expensive handguard for accessories down the road.
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Not likely cheaper. The biggest drivers of cost are R&D time, machine time, VS amount they will sell.

This idea would likely increase the base price $100-$200.
 
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