Picture of the day

diopter said:
And they pretty much wrote the book on modern warfare tactics and training. They learned a few lessons at Vimy on the receiving end and then set out to improve on them.
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While they had much technical prowess, there are important lessons the Germans never learned:

-studebaker truck beats horse and wagon
-genocide is not a winning strategy and motivates ppl to defeat you (duh).
-never fight a war in Russia in the winter. Learn from Napoleon's folly.
-lace up boots work better in the field than jackboots.
-quantity trumps quality in an industrialized conventional war
-don't ignore your navy.
 
RRCo. said:
Would it have been better to perhaps to have put it down on the grass
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I was wondering the same thing. I have made two emergency landings myself. Once with damaged gear.

The advantage of the runway is that you know exactly what will happen. On grass you might have a cartwheeling airplane.

In this case the drop tanks appeared to have protected the belly, so damage might have been minimal.

That is a gorgeous aircraft. The Brits had some dandys.
 
Claven2 said:
While they had much technical prowess, there are important lessons the Germans never learned:
-genocide is not a winning strategy and motivates ppl to defeat you (duh).
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Considering that no one knew this was happening, you can't argue it was part of there loss due to it motivating people. Genocide has also worked very well for many nations in establishing victory as horrible as it is to say.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
Considering that no one knew this was happening, you can't argue it was part of there loss due to it motivating people. Genocide has also worked very well for many nations in establishing victory as horrible as it is to say.
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Oh, I think the local resistance groups had a pretty good idea what was happening. And while the allies might not have appreciated the sheer scale, they certainly knew something was happening, there was a mass minority exodus from the 3rd Reich since the mid 1930's for the same reason.

YMMV.
 
Ganderite said:
I know nothing about artillery.

If it is an anti- tank gun, is not the sight used to aim directly at the target, so it would not matter if the gun shifted on the sand?
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Correct, also you only get one or 2 shots in the desert then you are dead. Typically they would use reverse slope on any depression they could find, fire til taken under fire then abandon the gun and hope the infantry would recapture later. Allies had lots of guns but trained gunners were an issue. Sometimes they would fire and long range once and load the gun and take off. They also used the Portee option of putting the gun on a flatbed as an unarmoured SP.
 
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Claven2 said:
While they had much technical prowess, there are important lessons the Germans never learned:

-studebaker truck beats horse and wagon
-genocide is not a winning strategy and motivates ppl to defeat you (duh).
-never fight a war in Russia in the winter. Learn from Napoleon's folly.
-lace up boots work better in the field than jackboots.
-quantity trumps quality in an industrialized conventional war
-don't ignore your navy.
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bombers with a decent payload, you must destroy the enemy's ability to build new crap before he does the same to you....
 
fraserdw said:
Correct, also you only get one or 2 shots in the desert then you are dead. Typically they would use reverse slope on any depression they could find, fire til taken under fire then abandon the gun and hope the infantry would recapture later. Allies had lots of guns but trained gunners were an issue. Sometimes they would fire and long range once and load the gun and take off. They also used the Portee option of putting the gun on a flatbed as an armoured SP.
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I wouldn't say it was quite as bad as that. In the desert with heat haze and dust, especially from moving vehicles a lot depends on the position of the sun and the direction of the winds etc. A khaki coloured gun on a khaki landscape is not so easy to pick out.

The 6 Pdr. unfortunately had a crappy little sight called the No.22 which had very short eye relief and was known for poking gunners in the eye, and also had no magnification.
 
I just finished a book on the use of Cavalry by the Wehrmacht. When all other means of transport was impossible due to cold, mud, lack of fuel, breakdowns, etc., the Cavalry was mobile. It acted as a quick reaction force, recce and rear guard.

Horse drawn transport was slow, but sure. When the poor brutes dropped dead from exhaustion and fatigue, they were eaten.


Claven2 said:
While they had much technical prowess, there are important lessons the Germans never learned:

-studebaker truck beats horse and wagon
-genocide is not a winning strategy and motivates ppl to defeat you (duh).
-never fight a war in Russia in the winter. Learn from Napoleon's folly.
-lace up boots work better in the field than jackboots.
-quantity trumps quality in an industrialized conventional war
-don't ignore your navy.
Click to expand...
 
fraserdw said:
bombers with a decent payload, you must destroy the enemy's ability to build new crap before he does the same to you....
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Interestingly the HE-111 and HE-177 had a bigger bomb payload then then the B-17 series. The Lancaster, Halifax and B-24 had much bigger bomb loads.

Stolen from the net:

B-17E:
Empty Weight: 33,280lb
Loaded weight: 53,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 4,000lb
Range: 1100 miles with 4,000lb

B-17F:
Empty Weight: 34,000lb
Loaded weight: 65,500lb
Max Bomb Load: 8,000lb
Range: 1,250 miles with 6,000lb

B-17G:
Empty Weight: 38,000lb
Loaded weight: 65,500lb
Max Bomb Load: 9,600lb
Range: 1200 miles with 6,000lb

B-24D:
Empty Weight: 32,605lb
Loaded weight: 71,200lb
Max Bomb Load: 12,000lb
Range: 1400 miles with 8,000lb

B-24J:
Empty Weight: 38,000lb
Loaded weight: 71,200lb
Max Bomb Load: 12,800lb
Range: 1540 miles with 8,000lb

B-29:
Empty Weight: 71,360lb
Loaded weight: 138,,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 20,000lb
Range: 1950 miles with 20,000lb

Halifax Mk.I:
Empty Weight: 33,860lb
Loaded weight: 55,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 13,000lb
Range: 980 miles with 13,000lb

Halifax Mk.III
Empty Weight: 39,000lb
Loaded weight: 65,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 13,000lb
Range: 1260 miles with 13,000lb

Lancaster B.I:
Empty Weight: 41,000lb
Loaded weight: 72,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 14,000lb
Range: 1040 miles with 12,000lb

Lancaster B.III:
Empty Weight: 41,500lb
Loaded weight: 72,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 14,000lb
Range: 1040 miles with 14,000lb

Lancaster B.I (Special):
Empty Weight: 36,000lb
Loaded weight: 72,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 20,000lb - Grand Slam
Range: 660 miles with 20,000lb

Heinkel He 111H:
Empty Weight: 17,000lb
Loaded weight: 30,8650lb
Max Bomb Load: 7,165lb
Range: 910 miles with 6,000lb

Heinkel He 177A-5:
Empty Weight: 37,038lb
Loaded weight: 68,343lb
Max Bomb Load: 13,225lb
Range: 1200 miles with 11,000lb
 
Ganderite said:
I seem to recall that in 1939 the majority of transport of the German army was by horse.
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Yes, and the British Army was the most highly mechanized. Unfortunately the generals who could have directed it effectively were not in charge of it.
 
CanukMauser said:
Interestingly the HE-111 and HE-177 had a bigger bomb payload then then the B-17 series. The Lancaster, Halifax and B-24 had much bigger bomb loads.

Stolen from the net:

B-17E:
Empty Weight: 33,280lb
Loaded weight: 53,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 4,000lb
Range: 1100 miles with 4,000lb

B-17F:
Empty Weight: 34,000lb
Loaded weight: 65,500lb
Max Bomb Load: 8,000lb
Range: 1,250 miles with 6,000lb

B-17G:
Empty Weight: 38,000lb
Loaded weight: 65,500lb
Max Bomb Load: 9,600lb
Range: 1200 miles with 6,000lb

B-24D:
Empty Weight: 32,605lb
Loaded weight: 71,200lb
Max Bomb Load: 12,000lb
Range: 1400 miles with 8,000lb

B-24J:
Empty Weight: 38,000lb
Loaded weight: 71,200lb
Max Bomb Load: 12,800lb
Range: 1540 miles with 8,000lb

B-29:
Empty Weight: 71,360lb
Loaded weight: 138,,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 20,000lb
Range: 1950 miles with 20,000lb

Halifax Mk.I:
Empty Weight: 33,860lb
Loaded weight: 55,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 13,000lb
Range: 980 miles with 13,000lb

Halifax Mk.III
Empty Weight: 39,000lb
Loaded weight: 65,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 13,000lb
Range: 1260 miles with 13,000lb

Lancaster B.I:
Empty Weight: 41,000lb
Loaded weight: 72,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 14,000lb
Range: 1040 miles with 12,000lb

Lancaster B.III:
Empty Weight: 41,500lb
Loaded weight: 72,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 14,000lb
Range: 1040 miles with 14,000lb

Lancaster B.I (Special):
Empty Weight: 36,000lb
Loaded weight: 72,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 20,000lb - Grand Slam
Range: 660 miles with 20,000lb

Heinkel He 111H:
Empty Weight: 17,000lb
Loaded weight: 30,8650lb
Max Bomb Load: 7,165lb
Range: 910 miles with 6,000lb

Heinkel He 177A-5:
Empty Weight: 37,038lb
Loaded weight: 68,343lb
Max Bomb Load: 13,225lb
Range: 1200 miles with 11,000lb
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The Mosquito belongs on this list. Like the B17, it carried 4000 lb of bomb, but was faster and almost double the range.


In April 1943 it was decided to convert a B Mk IV to carry a 4,000 lb (1,812 kg), thin-cased high explosive bomb (nicknamed "Cookie"). The conversion, including modified bomb bay suspension arrangements, bulged bomb bay doors and fairings, was relatively straightforward, and 54 B.IVs were subsequently modified and distributed to squadrons of RAF Bomber Command's Light Night Striking ForceThe B Mk IV had a maximum speed of 380 mph (610 km/h), a cruising speed of 265 mph (426 km/h), ceiling of 34,000 ft (10,000 m), a range of 2,040 nmi (3,780 km), and a climb rate of 2,500 ft per minute (762 m).[112]
 
Sharps '74 said:
I just finished a book on the use of Cavalry by the Wehrmacht. When all other means of transport was impossible due to cold, mud, lack of fuel, breakdowns, etc., the Cavalry was mobile. It acted as a quick reaction force, recce and rear guard.

Horse drawn transport was slow, but sure. When the poor brutes dropped dead from exhaustion and fatigue, they were eaten.
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Sounds to me like an army trying to rationalize a stupid choice.

The Germans had all sorts of reliable transportation for poor terrain, just never enough if it. The 2.5 ton truck won the war for the allies as much as any other factor.
 
Ganderite said:
The Mosquito belongs on this list. Like the B17, it carried 4000 lb of bomb, but was faster and almost double the range.


In April 1943 it was decided to convert a B Mk IV to carry a 4,000 lb (1,812 kg), thin-cased high explosive bomb (nicknamed "Cookie"). The conversion, including modified bomb bay suspension arrangements, bulged bomb bay doors and fairings, was relatively straightforward, and 54 B.IVs were subsequently modified and distributed to squadrons of RAF Bomber Command's Light Night Striking ForceThe B Mk IV had a maximum speed of 380 mph (610 km/h), a cruising speed of 265 mph (426 km/h), ceiling of 34,000 ft (10,000 m), a range of 2,040 nmi (3,780 km), and a climb rate of 2,500 ft per minute (762 m).[112]
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You could include the P-38 Lightning, then. It was classed as a Fighter/Bomber, and had a max bomb load of 4,000LB... Not at its most nimble when loaded down with bombs, but once it dropped them, with that 20mm canon and 4 .50 cals in the nose, it could fight its way out of a lot of trouble. Or just plain outrun any trouble it got into, with a max level airspeed pf 414mph.

Armament

1× Hispano M2(C) 20 mm cannon with 150 rounds
4× M2 Browning machine gun 0.50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns with 500 rpg.
4× M10 three-tube 4.5 in (112 mm) rocket launchers; or:

Inner hardpoints:
2× 2,000 lb (907 kg) bombs or drop tanks; or
2× 1,000 lb (454 kg) bombs or drop tanks, plus either
4× 500 lb (227 kg) bombs or
4× 250 lb (113 kg) bombs; or
6× 500 lb (227 kg) bombs; or
6× 250 lb (113 kg) bombs
Outer hardpoints:
10× 5 in (127 mm) HVARs (High Velocity Aircraft Rockets); or
2× 500 lb (227 kg) bombs; or
2× 250 lb (113 kg) bombs
Performance

Maximum speed: 414 mph (667 km/h) on Military Power: 1,425 hp at 54 inHg, 3,000 rpm at 25,000 ft (7,620 m)[citation needed]
Cruise speed: 275 mph (443 km/h)
Stall speed: 105 mph (169 km/h) (170 km/h)
Range: 1,300 mi (2,100 km) combat (1,770 mi / 3,640 km)
Service ceiling: 44,000 ft (13,000 m) (13,400 m)
Rate of climb : 4,750 ft/min (24.1 m/s) maximum
Wing loading: 53.4 lb/ft²[143] (260.9 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.16 hp/lb (0.27 kW/kg)
Lift-to-drag ratio: 13.5

The Lightning was modified for other roles. In addition to the F-4 and F-5 reconnaissance variants, a number of P-38Js and P-38Ls were field-modified as formation bombing "pathfinders" or "droopsnoots", fitted with a glazed nose with a Norden bombsight, or a H2X radar "bombing through overcast" nose. A pathfinder would lead a formation of other P-38s, each overloaded with two 2,000 lb (907 kg) bombs; the entire formation releasing when the pathfinder did.
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Ganderite said:
[/B]

Explain, please.
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The theory and practice of tank and armoured warfare was invented by the British in WWI, during 1917 and 18 the basic ideas of what came to be called blitzkrieg were worked out: tanks, armoured personnel carriers, close support by aircraft, deep penetration of the front, direct attacks up enemy command and supply centres behind their lines. All those things that paralyzed the victims in 1939-41 - all this and more was worked out, some was even planned for 1919 and 1920 had the war continued. JFC Fuller was the leading mind in all this, others such as Percy Hobart and Liddell-Hart helped to evolve it further between the wars. The establishment in the British Army was totally hostile to ideas such as putting the cavalry regiments in tanks, putting guns on tracked carriers or wheeled trucks - all that "rude mechanical" stuff. The German high command was mostly hostile as well, the difference was the tank men in Germany had Hitler on their side to push things along. Guderian, Rommel & Co., they all read Fuller and Hobart and ran with it. The rest as they say, is history. Churchill, who was instrumental in the birth of the tank itself only came to power in 1940. He did not have seven years to push and prod the generals into reform as Hitler did, he had to take the British Army as he found it: mentally mostly back where it was in 1914.
 
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