Bubba Yugga
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I admire your forbearance, Jerry.
Illegitimi nihil carborundum est.
Illegitimi nihil carborundum est.
Rem 783 - Some Range Testing - post 18
- Thread starter Mystic Precision
- Start date
Mystic Precision
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- Summerland, BC
Bolt swapping...
There are some considerations...
Headspace needs to be within spec., and ideally on the minimum side of things.
Locking lugs need to make contact with the receiver abutments.
Firing mechanism must function.
It is very easy to check whether a bolt fits acceptably or not.
Barrel and caliber changes routinely involve swapping barrels and bolts/bolt heads.
There are some considerations...
Headspace needs to be within spec., and ideally on the minimum side of things.
Locking lugs need to make contact with the receiver abutments.
Firing mechanism must function.
It is very easy to check whether a bolt fits acceptably or not.
Barrel and caliber changes routinely involve swapping barrels and bolts/bolt heads.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Summerland, BC
Absolutely correct... Always confirm parts fitment.
In this day of CNC manf parts and the need to speed up assembly, spending time to fit parts is not a good thing. I see so many production rifles embracing the barrel nut and floating bolt head style of design.... modular designs. There are big time savers for the manf but it also reduces/eliminates fitting and greatly speeds up headspacing.
I have been comparing bolts from Savage SA for a number of years. The bolt bodies typically fit with minor adjustments but the bolt heads can vary... if you can find, or modify, you can get them to interchange.
These 2 Rem 783's are the closest I have ever seen bolts to be from different actions.... Luck, design???? But it will be fun to compare when ever I can come across another receiver. The quality of manf and the squareness on important surfaces are spot on.
The best part about a floating bolt head rifle... the bolt head lugs will seat in the receiver even if there are some differences at the back of the bolt body/receiver. With CNC manf, wouldn't surprise me that many parts are consistently manf.
Jerry
I dont understand why you would want to start with an action that has so little support for after market parts when there are so many other actions out there, for similar or only slightly more initial investment, that have MUCH better support for building a QUALITY rifle on. And there are now complete rifles right from the factory that require no upgrades and that are so good and are easily with in the budgets you are talking about when using the 783 and then adding a barrel and a stock. For a few quick examples there are the Bergara HMR ($1500 retail), Ruger Precision Rifle ($1800 retail), Tikka Tac A1 ($2500 retail). Each of those rifles is available in the 6.5CM which seems to be the darling preferred by many on the PRS circuit. I don't doubt the 783 could possibly match or maybe even exceed the accuracy potential of the aforementioned rifles, but when you go to switch to something else, and you will, you have a 783 that is hard to sell. YMMV.
There is always the appeal of DIY, rather than buying across the counter or paying for a custom rifle.
I do my own gunsmithing, so that expense is irrelevant.
Most of the precision rifles I've set up are based on M700 actions. Had quite a supply of them from salvage rifles I broke for the actions. Modest unit cost for the actions. M700s work well. Don't even bother to replace the triggers; traditional Walker triggers can be adjusted to give excellent performance.
Its good that there are competitive commercial options for those who do not have the skills or equipment to look after themselves.
I do my own gunsmithing, so that expense is irrelevant.
Most of the precision rifles I've set up are based on M700 actions. Had quite a supply of them from salvage rifles I broke for the actions. Modest unit cost for the actions. M700s work well. Don't even bother to replace the triggers; traditional Walker triggers can be adjusted to give excellent performance.
Its good that there are competitive commercial options for those who do not have the skills or equipment to look after themselves.
I agree 100%, the appeal of a rifle you "designed" yourself is huge, I have had several customs over the years. The downside is resale value is no where near the investment as you have to find that exact person that wants the same thing you did. Most guys are not set up to do their own work though, I am pretty handy, but out side of mounting rails, scopes and pillar bedding, I can't do any work like chambering or cutting threads for muzzle brakes.
Rem 700 is the one to use, I agree. It certainly has the most aftermarket support for anything you can dream up, but generally needs the work of a smith to blue print (or what ever you call it) and chamber and install barrels. I have also heard and experienced the Rem triggers are excellent once tuned, I have a couple in my locker that are as good as any Timney I have installed.
The over the counter rifles have a lot of appeal to me, they are ready to go out of the box, just add optics, and they have warranty--although I have heard it sometimes hard to get that work done if/when required. Of the three I mentioned, I have personal experience with the Ruger and the Tikka, and both shot incredible right out of the box, I know that a sample size of just a few rifle is bad for statistics but just do a quick search of these forums and those two rifles have a lot more positive reviews than negative.
Agreed, lots of good affordable options which will run out of the box without any sort of "jerry rigging".
I think the bold part is being a bit generous towards the 783. Match sure, but saying exceed is being a bit disingenuous. It all hinges upon quality barrels and the gunsmith doing the chambering (biggest factor in the equation no matter what rifle).
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I agree, but with no personal experience with the 783, except for running and hiding when I see one a gun store or at the range, I did not want to sound like an internet expert. I have no experience with it so I will no comment on its potential. However I do believe there are MUCH BETTER options out there that require nothing other than quality optics and it will get you in to the game with equipment that will last a long time, and if outgrown has a MUCH BETTER resale value down the road. This old saying comes to mind..."put lipstick on a pig, you still have a pig."
Interesting thread. I do all my smithing too, have a 783 action that I've considered making into a PRS entry level gun, then decided to shelve that idea. Apart from PT&G bolt heads, one M5 mag adapter and a Boyds stock there are no aftermarket parts.
Maybe in the future, but for now the Rem 700 and custom actions mated to good stocks like the Manner and McMillan or the chassis systems is the preferred choice.
Having seen the Tikka, Bergara and Ruger factory options for those wanting that I agree with others here.
Maybe in the future, but for now the Rem 700 and custom actions mated to good stocks like the Manner and McMillan or the chassis systems is the preferred choice.
Having seen the Tikka, Bergara and Ruger factory options for those wanting that I agree with others here.
Mystic Precision
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- Summerland, BC
And this is THE question... Thank You!!!
Why bother? Really, WHY bother.... Because the Rem 783 Action is that good.... it answers so many questions and does so many things well.
When I bought the first rifle, it was for a winter project in 2016 to help a customer looking to get an entry level hunting rifle for his kid. I had already spent time with the other plastic fantastics - Axis, American - and just wanted to see how bad this Rem was going to be. For those that have followed my posts, they know I have started with the Rem 700 decades back and have been a big critic of what Rem is producing over the last years.
I was not expecting much of anything from this 783... just another POS cheap disposable rifle, with a few tweaks over the 770 fiascos. Something that stores blow out for cheap and I waste time trying to explain why it will not become a match rifle by just redoing the crown and switching to "match" ammo.
All those guys on this post that have been slinging mud... I totally get it... so much of this entry level stuff has degenerated to crap. Disposable crap.
Problem is, I actually bought one... on end of season clearance with a Rem rebate. For pure S&G's and to answer my customers questions, why not.. at worst, I will go yuck sell it off and recover my money
Took it home, tore it apart, went WOW and started mucking with it. 1 week later I bought another, tore it apart expecting to see my first as merely a fluke and this one would be a POS. Nope.. both very good. Ummmm, now I have a problem... how to complete the testing?
I convinced McGowen to make me a prefit... sent down drawing and dimensions (thanks Terry at BARC). Luckily very similar to Savage thread pattern so they agreed. Now what I am going to put the rifle in... ok, Boyds stock.. that's it... nothing else. Oh well... get it assembled, make up some bottom metal... yeah, there are no parts at all but I need to go beat on this rifle and the only way to test is to fab what I need.
So the rifles are built... this year, I have tested them hard... found a couple of problems... fixed those and still am trying to find flaws, so I can just put this whole thing aside and go... yep, just another cost cutting, mass produced, disposable "tool" to fill a market need... something that will wear out or break down once you put any use through it.
Problem, the Rem 783 ACTION continues to impress and actually better the more I use it. What's the point? I can't sell you anything, I can't buy much of anything...
It is just a really good design waiting on parts.... and that is a few keystrokes away.... maybe.
I have compared the operation and parts against alot of the other common stuff.... I have custom actions to compare to as well. There is so much there to like IF you take the time to look and understand... and I know most that are slinging mud have likely never handled one or just in a cursory manner. It does not show well in the gunstore.
It is so rare to find something that is engineered and manf WAY beyond its intended use. This is an entry level hunting rifle designed to compete with the plastic fantastic Big Box mass produced junk.
Why this good? no clue but it answers alot of shortcomings in a repeater bolt action rifle... and why I choose to use it despite little aftermarket support
Yes, there are SOOO many easier options but I have yet to find an action that does all that this one does for the costs involved.. out of the box. I was going to do a part/operation comparison with the other popular actions (at least those that are actually available) but with the yelling and screaming, I said screw it.
If you want plug and play, for now, this is NOT your choice. If you understand bolt actions and can see how the built in features can work great into the evolution of the sport, you will be impressed like me.
YMMV.
Jerry
My first real fullbore TR (DCRA) was built up on an older Nielsen MN300 action, assembled in an early Robertson stock, with a barrel of unknown make, which had been set back previously. Eventually retired the barrel, fitted a new Schneider. Everexamined a Nielsen action? Really basic design. Almost primitive. But it does the job. Eventually upgraded to a new rifle I built up on a Musgrave action, Truflyte (NZ) barrel in a new Robertson stock. Anyway, I had the old Nielsen out a couple of months ago, just to zero the 12X Leupold I'd mounted, and shot a 5/8" group @100m with 15 year old TR handloads (46Varget, 155SMKs).
The Howa is another action that is often overlooked. Basically a Japanese copy of the vintage Sako. Very well machined.
Point is that a rifle doesn't necessarily need a custom action to shoot well.
I've never closely examined a Remington 783. Might well a diamond in the rough. If one were to fall into my lap, I wouldn't mind experimenting.
But it has been pointed out to me that if a 783 were rebarrelled, it would automatically fall into the PRS Open classification. It would be competing against shooters using full blown custom rifles. Don't know if that would be a desirable situation, particularly for a new entry level shooter. If the 783 were available with a varmint weight barrel in one of the preferred calibers, it might be a go to rifle for a beginning competitor. Less money in the rifle, more to spend on the optic.
The Howa is another action that is often overlooked. Basically a Japanese copy of the vintage Sako. Very well machined.
Point is that a rifle doesn't necessarily need a custom action to shoot well.
I've never closely examined a Remington 783. Might well a diamond in the rough. If one were to fall into my lap, I wouldn't mind experimenting.
But it has been pointed out to me that if a 783 were rebarrelled, it would automatically fall into the PRS Open classification. It would be competing against shooters using full blown custom rifles. Don't know if that would be a desirable situation, particularly for a new entry level shooter. If the 783 were available with a varmint weight barrel in one of the preferred calibers, it might be a go to rifle for a beginning competitor. Less money in the rifle, more to spend on the optic.
Jerry, you make it sound like all the current actions out there have design flaws, and the rem 783 is the answer.
There are a bunch of good actions out there that are available at a budget. They all feed well, they all have good accuracy (again, very dependent on quality of barrel and gunsmithing), lots of aftermarket support (chassis/stocks, triggers, etc.) and they even have switch barrel capabilities with certain aftermarket parts. Some of them come PRS ready from the box!
The reality is, the target doesn't know what action you are using. The Rem 783 doesn't solve ANY short comings that the PRS community is facing. Especially in the budget community - there is no shortage of quality options, and they are only greater by the day.
Maybe this is the ticket for budget F-Classers, I don't know much about that discipline. But I do know that this is not the answer to PRS shooting on a budget.
There are a bunch of good actions out there that are available at a budget. They all feed well, they all have good accuracy (again, very dependent on quality of barrel and gunsmithing), lots of aftermarket support (chassis/stocks, triggers, etc.) and they even have switch barrel capabilities with certain aftermarket parts. Some of them come PRS ready from the box!
The reality is, the target doesn't know what action you are using. The Rem 783 doesn't solve ANY short comings that the PRS community is facing. Especially in the budget community - there is no shortage of quality options, and they are only greater by the day.
Maybe this is the ticket for budget F-Classers, I don't know much about that discipline. But I do know that this is not the answer to PRS shooting on a budget.
Mystic Precision
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- Summerland, BC
So far, the beating I have given these Rems, I have no issue competing with a custom action. The accuracy potential of these actions, I have demonstrated elsewhere.... 1/4 to 1/3 min is no better, no worst then any other properly built rifle. It will shoot just fine. But really isn't going to matter if the action hangs up. Way too common a problem with many production receivers.... bolt binds and game over.
I was so surprised to find that the antibind in this action actually does work.... you can see my video elsewhere. I have played with custom actions that had more bolt bind then this action.
The trueness and squareness of the front end is BANG ON (hopefully, all others are this good). That is why I put up the pictures of the fired cases and bolt heads. Most factory platforms aren't really square and cases will show the effects especially when operating at higher pressures. Why the heck do gunsmiths blue print actions when putting on match barrels?
Most factory bolts have sloppy firing pin holes and you get all sorts of primer cratering which can lead to other issues (think Savage amoungst others). How many Rem 700's get their bolts bushed? So far none and I am operating at typical loads.
Just because you have a bunch of factory actions in fancy clothing doesn't mean they don't share all the same shortcomings that factory actions have. From lousy trigger pulls, crappy barrel accuracy and stability, poor feeding, poor cycling.... the list goes on. Change a part... go into Open.
So someone buys a RPR or Savage in a chassis or whatever, the barrel they have warps as soon as it gets hot and then they are spraying and praying. That shooter has just invested a bunch of money and will be held back by the rifle... keep changing rifles until he finds a good one? Change out for better parts and end up in Open?
How do you fix a crappy factory trigger pull? Modify and replace.... guess what?
Is bedding allowed in factory? what happens when action A is just a bit smaller then expected and sloshes around in chassis B?
We tried the Factory thing in F class... sounded good at first but the irratic performance of the factory parts made it a guessing game on how the newbie was going to do. It never went anywhere.
If someone can demonstrate a factory off the shelf rig that will run properly, have consistent and reliable accuracy, no function issues like picking up rds, that will be a very popular set up indeed.
Anyone want to step up and prove their alternatives will work 'out of the box'?
If Remington started offering Rem 783's in a chassis, would I get all excited? Sure!!! would I use one in factory class?... when was the last time you would bet your match fees on a Rem factory barrel? Hint hint,, the Rem 783 barrels I have shot were much better then other 700's BUT I sure would not want one on my match rifle.. regardless of the class.
Once you have to fix and maintain other factory actions, costs sky rocket and why not just go with a popular custom action and be done with it?
This is where the Rem 783's I have played with shine. They are performing with little effort and little costs... Perfect... that the shooting community will decide.
Someone come up with a 3.15" AICS length mag... oh things, just got a whole lot more interesting.....
Jerry
Jerry,
You really need to shoot a PRS match to see what really matters and what doesn't when you are shooting a 1-2 MOA target off a barricade under the clock.
All of the so called "issues" you claim to see in other actions really don't manifest themselves in PRS matches. Not with the equipment we are running, including the more budget friendly options. There is no "barrel warp" - not enough to prevent them from hitting a 1-2 MOA target.
It really doesn't make any sense for someone getting into PRS on a budget to get a rem 783. No real advantages over the current crop of budget options (despite what you claim), with a lot of disadvantages.
Maybe stick to F-Class. You seem a little out of your wheelhouse here.
You really need to shoot a PRS match to see what really matters and what doesn't when you are shooting a 1-2 MOA target off a barricade under the clock.
All of the so called "issues" you claim to see in other actions really don't manifest themselves in PRS matches. Not with the equipment we are running, including the more budget friendly options. There is no "barrel warp" - not enough to prevent them from hitting a 1-2 MOA target.
It really doesn't make any sense for someone getting into PRS on a budget to get a rem 783. No real advantages over the current crop of budget options (despite what you claim), with a lot of disadvantages.
Maybe stick to F-Class. You seem a little out of your wheelhouse here.
