mudgunner49
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I'm still trying to wrap my headspace around 900 pounds of free powder...
Powder mixup - H4895 and 4064
- Thread starter GP11
- Start date
BrotherRockeye
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Rural Saskatchewan
I agree!
Correction, the mixed powder now is neither H4895 or IMR-4064 and the load data must be reduced to be safe. Meaning using the powder for mid or lower loads and once its used up and gone you use normal load data. If someone else picks up the powder and uses it for warm loads they could be in trouble. And my point is Murphy's law created this powder and another screwup is waiting to happen again.
Murphy's law "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong". And now some people who read this posting will ignore the warning in the reloading manuals to not mix powders.
I get rid of old powders and mixed powders simply because its safer to buy a new can of powder and carry on as normal.
After working half my life working on aircraft I then became a Inspector in quality control and below is the first thing they taught us in class.
97% of all aircraft accidents are caused by human error and only 3% are caused by actual mechanical failures.
Bottom line, it boils down to how cheap you want to be, and I'm 67 and more forgetful now and more prone to making errors. This isn't a popularity contest its a simple wake up call.
45 grains of 4064 in 7000 grains of 4895 is nothing. I dumped a whole measure full of H1000 into a nearly full keg of H414 once, and right in the worst of two powder shortages ago. After brooding about it for few days I poured it all through my wife's kitchen strainer. Stick powder stayed in the screen, ball powder ran through like water. I opened a fresh can for my upcoming hunting trip and used the strained powder for practice. Tossed the caught H1000, that was my penance for being dumb.
Let's use some common sense here - and keep learning.
If the mix is 4895 and 4064 the two mixed powders are so similar that it would not matter what data you used. If you had developed a safe load of 44 gr for either powder and used that charge of the mix, the gun would not blow up.
If you dumped a hopper of 296 (ball pistol powder) in to a partial can of BLC2 (ball rifle powder) the resulting mix would be dangerous in a rifle because if the BLC2 load data was used the gun could be blown up. It would be reasonable to throw that powder out. But personally, I would see if I could make some 44Mag plinking ammo out of it, using the data for a full charge of 296. I tend to load 500 rounds, minimum, at a time, so would see if I could use up the entire batch of mixed powder.
If a hopper of 296 was dumped into a 8 pounder of BLC2, I would just shake it up, do a new load development with it (treating it as a new lot of BLC2) and carry on.
Most of my powders are not canister grade powders. I have a barrel of 4895, for example, marked LC4895. This came from the Lake City facility, and is a very slow lot of 4895. It takes about 2 more grains to a load than canister grade 4895 (the stuff you buy).
I have another barrel of 4895 marked 4895??? I have no idea what it is or where it came from. It looks like 4895 and 4895 data works for it.
The powder factories make powders in large lots (a ton, minimum) according to a recipe, and then test the powder and mark it for speed. It is sold to ammo makers with this data, who then note that it is “fast 4895” or “slow 4350” and decide where to use it and then do a load development to get the velocity they want for that caliber.
If a particular batch of powder happens to be in the speed range of the commercial version of that powder, it is packaged and sold to you as a “canister” powder. The difference in lot to lot of canister powders is usually quite small. Note that I said “usually”….
One of the ball powders is made to the recipe and if the result is fast it is called 844 (sold to you as H335) and if it is slow, it is labelled 846 and sold to you as BLC2. The military use one for 5.56 and the other for 7.62. (I forget which is which.)
The ammo maker and the bullet/powder company making a loading manual will use a pressure gun equipped with a SAAMI spec barrel. This is a high quality barrel carefully chambered to dimensions specified for a test barrel. Lija, and others, supply these barrels. Loads are developed that are safe in this barrel.
But the rifle makers (the big commercial outfits, the smaller companies and the local gunsmith) do not use the same SAAMI specs in their rifles/chambers. The Remington 308Win, for example, uses a very long throat, which reduces pressures. The Savage throat is short, ideal for milsurp ammo. But Savage does not use the short throat set out in the SAMI spec for 223. They use a 223 body shape with a very long NATO throat (similar to what Remington does to many calibers).
The ammo makers tend to avoid the upper limits of allowable pressures because of all the variations out there in barrel and chamber dimensions. Although the limit might be 62,000 psi, their ammo is more likely 55,000 psi (or less).
The powder/bullet company making a loading manual will use a SAAMO spec barrel for the initial testing, to make sure the pressures are acceptable, but then will test the max loads in a bunch of “library” guns they have in that caliber. Sometimes the staff will bring in their rifles of that caliber, to make sure as many different commercial guns are tested as possible.
I was talking to a tech at one of the big bullet makers about the testing of SAAMI ammo in commercial rifles (it was my experience that there were always some commercial rifles with short, tight throats that were not safe) and he told me that they had blown up rifles using ammo that was safe by SAAMI specs. I recall him telling me how a Rem700 blows up compared to a Win M70. (one of them shattered into 27 pieces, but I have forgotten which was which).
When you turn to the loading manual, you are picking up where they left off. The published loads are safe in a SAAMI spec pressure barrel, but may not be in your rifle. This is why they supply the START load. Start there, and work up (or down) depending on how the START load works. I once found a rifle that was dangerously over pressured with the book’s START load.
I mention all this because the difference between rifles is large and there is far more danger in starting off with the “MAX” load in the book (as many guys do) than using a powder contaminated with a little bit of other powder.
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So Ganderite if you were still selling insurance would you sell a life insurance policy to a 18 year old who mixed powders. Or would you consider this person high risk and charge him double.
I'm 67 and have common sense and have been reloading for over 47 years and know how to fix my mistakes. Its the new reloaders and people with little common sense like sunray repeating your postings in other forums that will screw this up.
Here in the U.S the average pound of powder cost $25.00 so to me its not worth using a mixed hybrid "H4864" and I would burn it on the 4th of July.
Opinions are like anus orifices, everyone has one, so anyone reading this can make up their own mind on what to do with mixed powders.
And I thought I was a tight cheep bastard, when I break wind it sounds like a silent dog whistle.
Would I sell life insurance to an 18 year old who mixed powders?
Sure.
If he was doing it deliberately, to "improve" a powder, he would not find any improvement, but no harm would come of it, so long as he started low and worked up. The fact that so many loaders do not start low and work up is a bigger concern to me.
I can see that a young fellow like you can afford to scrap powder that us old farts on fixed retirement cannot afford to do so readily. But there is nothing wrong with being cautious and scrapping the mistakes.
As for listening to Sunray, I think it was Confusious who said "A fool's gun is soon parted."
Sure.
If he was doing it deliberately, to "improve" a powder, he would not find any improvement, but no harm would come of it, so long as he started low and worked up. The fact that so many loaders do not start low and work up is a bigger concern to me.
I can see that a young fellow like you can afford to scrap powder that us old farts on fixed retirement cannot afford to do so readily. But there is nothing wrong with being cautious and scrapping the mistakes.
As for listening to Sunray, I think it was Confusious who said "A fool's gun is soon parted."
I mixed tomato juice and prune juice once and later I thought I had intestinal bleeding.
Read the links below and see the various answers then decide on mixing powders. I'm part of the dump it or use it as fertilizer crowd.
Mixing rifle powders of different burn rates
https://www.google.com/search?q=mixing+rifle+powders+of+different+burn+rates&ei=g0D2WfSHIIzKjwTdr7jwAw&start=10&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=617
Read the links below and see the various answers then decide on mixing powders. I'm part of the dump it or use it as fertilizer crowd.
Mixing rifle powders of different burn rates
https://www.google.com/search?q=mixing+rifle+powders+of+different+burn+rates&ei=g0D2WfSHIIzKjwTdr7jwAw&start=10&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=617
Ask sunray about no brainers, he even gives out advice on American football. Read all these posts below while your mixing and shaking your powder cans.
http://www.jouster2.com/forums/search.php?searchid=17214
I thought only sunray spread loads of $hit..................
I tried to look for Sunray posts, but I don't think it will give me a search function if I am not a member. Perhaps you could treat us to few of his words of wisdom?
Sunray has nothing to do with this thread.
I could do a test to prove this out (as I've done many times for other things in reloading), but I have nothing to prove to myself, and I have found that if I do something to prove it to others, it's generally pointless. Too many will simply cling to their original google-supported position and dismiss the test as inconclusive. Almost no-one does original testing anymore.
If I was so inclined and performed the following test, tell us what would happen, and why in your own words:
308 Win, 175 gr Sierra, 2.800" OAL
1. 42.7 grs H4895
2. 42.2 grs H4895, 0.5 grs IMR4064 - 99:1 ratio (almost twice as much IMR4064 as there'd be in this thread's example)
3. 38.4 grs H4895, 4.3 grs IMR4064 - 90:10
4. 34.2 grs H4895, 8.5 grs IMR4064 - 80:20
5. 30.0 grs H4895, 12.7 grs IMR4064 - 70:30
6. 25.6 grs H4895, 17.1 grs IMR4064 - 60:40
7. 21.4 grs H4895, 21.3 grs IMR4064 - 50:50
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No one in this posting has pressure testing equipment to test mixed powders.
And that would be pointless anyway because there are no standards or data for mix powders.
I don't care what you or anyone else does to save a pound of mixed powder that cost $25.00
I'm stating the opposite of what a few have said here to make people to think about mixing any amount of powder and what can happen.
Bottom line, the people here telling you its OK to mix powders will not be the one holding the rifle inches from your face.
Be safe and not sorry.
And that would be pointless anyway because there are no standards or data for mix powders.
I don't care what you or anyone else does to save a pound of mixed powder that cost $25.00
I'm stating the opposite of what a few have said here to make people to think about mixing any amount of powder and what can happen.
Bottom line, the people here telling you its OK to mix powders will not be the one holding the rifle inches from your face.
Be safe and not sorry.
So Ganderite if you were still selling insurance would you sell a life insurance policy to a 18 year old who mixed powders. Or would you consider this person high risk and charge him double.
I'm 67 and have common sense and have been reloading for over 47 years and know how to fix my mistakes. Its the new reloaders and people with little common sense like sunray repeating your postings in other forums that will screw this up.
Here in the U.S the average pound of powder cost $25.00 so to me its not worth using a mixed hybrid "H4864" and I would burn it on the 4th of July.
Opinions are like anus orifices, everyone has one, so anyone reading this can make up their own mind on what to do with mixed powders.
And I thought I was a tight cheep bastard, when I break wind it sounds like a silent dog whistle.
What you're trying to do is like teaching abstinence only to a 16 years old. Oddly, abstinence is the best way not to get anyone pregnant, but it doesn't work.
You're better off teaching when it's okay to use powders that have been mixed by mistake than preaching a blanket "dump that stuff", just like you're better off teaching teenagers about different birth control methods than preaching abstinence only if you want to avoid unwanted pregnancies.
No one is saying it's ok to mix powders. Everyone (but you) is saying the particular mix the OP made by mistake won't blow up in his face if he uses it. There's a big difference. Don't put words into people's mouth.
