Abby Multi-Weapon Operations whos going ?

misanthropist said:
Well, I can't give a real AAR here because I'm obligated to do it elsewhere. But the Dismounted Small Team Ops section is sure a lot of fun.

I suspect Veritac is going to evolve into a dominant Canadian training organization very rapidly.
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Was waiting for someone to post about the DSTO course. Was it more intense than the second day of the MWO? Same group of students? Did the night shoot and the body drag happen?
 
A lot of the same students, some new people, smaller group overall.

Intense I'm not sure. In a sense, much more so: more movement, more people, more fluid situations. The complexity of the drills definitely expanded. I think they avoided night shooting and body drags because a lot of guys were reaching their limits of what they could safely manage. You can't overload people with live guns. If you give people who haven't got everything under control too many variables to work with, you end up with rifles pointing the wrong direction or fingers on triggers because their foundations aren't cast in stone. This is the inherent nature of short courses: you ratchet up the demands but you have to stay within the bounds of the group's abilities.

DSTO is definitely much more CP-specific information. It's not a general-purpose carbine class, it's a condensed course on security operations. MWO is more general, or at least the needs of that MWO class were such that a lot of the first weekend was general shooting instruction.
 
JdG’s approach, and indeed Veritac’s is that the foundations and fundamentals are drilled. This includes CP where we are working in extreme confined spaces, dog piled into vehicle (literally on top of eachother) when it’s exfil time. This with live weapons and a volunteer VIP with just rifle plates presents a bit of a skills challenge for those who have not mastered positive weapons control. So we go to slow is smooth... smooth is fast is something else that you practice.

Thanks for the AARs. It helps inform our pedagogical approach

I’ll put some pics up after we’ve redacted some attendees and instructors

As an aside, for those that were asking, we have 6 pairs of veritac rifle plates inbound. These are surplus to our needs and so we have decided to release these. We do not anticipate doing this after these are gone. Check it out at our FB page for more info. https://m.facebook.com/veritacsolutionstraining/
 
I think the above is the real crux of things...you have a live person that's got to be run or dragged out of a live fire exercise. Guns not under absolute control will end up pointed at someone's head. It's no joke. This is not something that should be attempted by just anyone.

There's a very common theme in training in which nobody wants to take the basic level stuff. Everyone wants to go straight to being a hero, running and gunning and...I don't know, maybe...sunning? Funning? Anyway, everybody wants to do cool guy stuff. I do too; it feels awesome. Everybody loves the sensation of doing high-level stuff and everybody wants to spend their weekend doing stuff they can tell everyone about and it sounds insane and awesome and heroic.

But you don't start out as a neurosurgeon. You start by stitching minor scalp cuts back together and over time you get so skilled that everyone trusts you implicitly and you do more and more exotic stuff and eventually in time you do the surgeries that get headlines.


The reason I tend to harp on this side of things is that I have seen a whole lot of internet BS where photographers stand next to targets and open enrolment groups with no history of working together go live with hot rifles, running and chewing gum and juggling grenades, and people LOVE those classes. They feel like rock stars because someone told them they could act like a rock star for a day.

But quality training isn't taking a guy, handing him a lyrics sheet, and standing him in front of a band to deliver a terrible rendition of "Carry on my Wayward Son". That's not training musicians, that's drunk karaoke and it's not what makes elite musicians. Making elite musicians means singing scales until you're nailing every note, and spending hours figuring out fingering on your guitar, and incrementally improving until you can stand up there and rock.



As such, I have respect for all the guys that come out to training like this, because it isn't always going to be glamourous. It's going to be nitpicky and repetitive and safety-focused and the harder it is the more likely it is to be pouring rain (which at times it was).

But that's how you tell if it's good. If you want to run around with guns doing whatever you want, you can do that for free, anytime you like. But if you want to get called on your mistakes and coached on your technique and held to a higher standard and you can cope with getting punched in the ego and come back from that better and faster and stronger, then you're the kind of guy I want to shoot with because you're committed to improvement, and courses like this are the way to achieve that.
 
Well said, My ego took a real good ch!t kicking ;) :redface: :redface: :redface: But Im still going over in my head what I have to practice and loved the way it was presented.

heck I could've ran to my safe space and buried my head in the sand, But I decided to take on more training and dedicate myself more when I train instead of running around shooting steel with no real purpose.

As for the rain, heck it actually added benefits to the training. :cool:
 
DILLIGAF said:
Well said, My ego took a real good ch!t kicking ;) :redface: :redface: :redface: But Im still going over in my head what I have to practice and loved the way it was presented.
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Ditto. I'm just glad I mostly kept up. Looking forward to more of these from Veritac... maybe in May or June, in nice weather ;)



AAR from the MWO course: only way I think it could have been improved would have been to make it three full days instead of an evening and two days... day 1, half-day on the medical stuff we did on the Friday night, half-day on the pistol stuff we did on Saturday. Day 2 finishing pistol and integrating rifle. Day 3 full combo stuff, like we did on the Sunday. I think Veritac did a great job. And for me at least, it was a pleasure being out with some seriously skilled instructors and likewise skilled fellow students.
 
^^^^ What they said. A full 3 day course would space things out better as well as give us the chance to drill the steps into our thick skulls!

What misanthropist said made things clear too. I was expecting a “ Go Fast” mall ninja type course so Day 1 pistol was a bit slow. The pep talk we got before the start of Day 2 cleared things up. As nza said, slow is smooth and smooth is fast...and we can work on the fast ourselves!! Now I get it!

Seems like Veritac is not going to fall into the trap of all the other “Tactical” courses we see on the interwebs. JdG did say that the training we got in 2 days is the starting basics of what the SF guys get. Except they get drilled a million repetitions more so it’s automatic.

I came away humbled and realizing there is a lot still left to learn and I wasn’t as good as I thought I was.
 
I put this in a clumsy fashion while talking on the firing line but I'm a firm believer that if you're a diligent enough student, there's no lesson that can't challenge you. If someone tells me to stand still and shoot slowly with no draws and no reloads, my groups can always get smaller. My trigger press can always get smoother. My grip can always get more consistent.

The question is really "am I a disciplined enough student to push myself equally hard in all circumstances?"

In reality, no, I'm not. I do my best but nobody has endless patience or perfect discipline and I definitely don't. But that's the student interfering with the lesson, not a weakness of the lesson itself.


In this case I thought it was interesting because the demands simply increased in a totally linear fashion. I didn't push myself hard at the beginning but by the end I had no choice but to push myself to keep up. The next time I go into this kind of training I will be more disciplined about pushing myself even when I feel comfortable. Tighter reloads. Faster. More control.

By the end of the second weekend I had my hands full just juggling the competing demands of moving and communicating while staying aware of everyone else's line of fire. The large scale coordination alone took up most of my available processor cycles. I was shooting on autopilot and I needed all my shooting decisions to be automated in order to keep track of where everyone was. If I had less time on the trigger in general I would really have started to see the wheels come off, I think. Or if I'd had more tasks added. I think we finished close to the limits of my skill set, that's for sure.
 
^^^^ You write really well, misanthropist!

As I’m reading, I can FEEL exactly what you are saying. Having only attended the MWO section, and feeling a bit overwhelmed on Day 2, I cant imagine what Day 2 of the DSTO would have been like! Well said!
 
In this case I thought it was interesting because the demands simply increased in a totally linear fashion. I didn't push myself hard at the beginning but by the end I had no choice but to push myself to keep up. The next time I go into this kind of training I will be more disciplined about pushing myself even when I feel comfortable. Tighter reloads. Faster. More control.
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I wish i had a dollar for every time I've heard that on AAR. I've talk about it on prep speech, i told guys on the line but usually it takes a couple courses to understand it.
Guys are spending hard earned money for training and once there they print nice tight groups a full 10 seconds after the 'up' command when the instructor is asking for a double tap after a quarter turn...
Do this on your range day, not during a course.
You are paying for the instructors: they will keep you safe while you try to do that drill in 4 sec, then 2.5 then 1.8 sec, then they will slow you down at 2 sec because that's your speed for 100% hits. That's what you are paying for, and that's valid from reloads, to gun manipulations, to 'Aussie Peel'.
Short of the first couple drills, where you have to prove that you know how to safely use your guns, all exercises should be done as fast, as hard as you can or it's just another range day, expensive that is.
When I see that in courses I really want to give guys their money back: we are both wasting time.
But don't worry, we'll be back and we will push you.

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Davemachine looks good in that pic, Nick!

It's nice and refreshing to hear such an honest statement from an instructor who's been there. Most courses couldn't care less and just want your money. You guys really put your heart out and want the best from your students. You're right! We paid to learn, not to show off.

I will have a different attitude when I attempt the next course you guys offer!
 
there is a metric-tonne of photos an videos uploaded to the veritac alumni group.
 
Sorry I’m not awesome on social media. Reach out to miracle joe to add you.
 
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