Canadian made "black" rifle

And if the brainstorming and concept does not start now, then that will just be longer.

This is a good thing. There are Canadian manufacture options. But they can't do much if not presented a concept or design.

It has to start, somewhere.
 
308GUY said:
The more I read on the AR180, the more I like/want.

Simply modernize it a bit, new stock assembly, make it accept AR furniture, optics ready receiver, threaded barrel etc
and I'd buy one for sure
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I'm with you on this one to. I had to do some homework and get informed when I saw the ar180b suggestion come up earlier. I think that's a good route imho.
 
tootall said:
Why do people keep asking for a mini 14?
It requires a steel reciever as the bolt locks into the receiver itself, not a barrel extension.
And it nèeds some unique machining.
Not gonna happen...
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Agreed, You want a mini-14 then go buy one, they're already in the ballpark price we're talking about and they are reliable.
Don't worry about it taking pistol mags, the Lieberals are going to be going after those as well one of these days so we're going to end up with 5 rounds max for every rifle out there.


308GUY said:
The more I read on the AR180, the more I like/want.

Simply modernize it a bit, new stock assembly, make it accept AR furniture, optics ready receiver, threaded barrel etc
and I'd buy one for sure
Click to expand...

Yup, the 180 is a great rifle, with a little tweaking and a good price it could be a show stealer here.
 
I really hope the focus is not on yet another 223 or 762x39 semi.
I want to see a NR optics ready 308 semi that is off-the-shelf quality with no concerns of having to swap out parts.
 
norlandgeese said:
I really hope the focus is not on yet another 223 or 762x39 semi.
I want to see a NR optics ready 308 semi that is off-the-shelf quality with no concerns of having to swap out parts.
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Cheap, reliable and .308 are getting into that twilight zone of non realistic Canadian gun owner demands once again IMO.
They had a home run with the 102 and ####ed it up because of exactly this. If it's a .308 people want bolt action precision or hell! Then they want bolt action precision in a semi auto. Then they want loose battle rifle tolerance reliability. Then they want it for as cheap as possible. Then we get the 102.....

.308 is expensive. Especially for punching paper and ringing steel, plinking, pop can exploding, close up tactical drills for guys that are into that stuff etc etc 5.56mm can be had in bulk cheap for less than $0.50 a round still, even less when the deals are on. Low recoil means lighter design, less materials, lower cost rifle.
7.62x39mm is temporarily appealing due to current relatively low price on surplus but once the surplus dries up (it will one day) or there is a shortage, it's going to go up and then we're dependent on foreign/international world events to get affordable ammo maybe. Commercial NA produced 7.62x39 is not cheap.

The AR180 is where it's at with moderate revisions (not the AR180b) and some AR15 parts compatibility. Keep the Lower/Upper and the BCG proprietary and there is no chance in hell they can AR variant it.
 
sixty9santa said:
Modernized AR180 in .308 would be nice as well!
Maybe a new piston operated .308?
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norlandgeese said:
I really hope the focus is not on yet another 223 or 762x39 semi.
I want to see a NR optics ready 308 semi that is off-the-shelf quality with no concerns of having to swap out parts.
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308 I'd be all over. Actually, again, either of 7.62 x 51 or x 39, I'd be all over.

I can get surplus at about $0.43 right now, for plinking, so the argument for 223 or x39 being cheaper, just barely holds water.
 
I see the sound reasoning with regards to using AR parts and pieces, but am i the only one sick of AR this AR that AR stock on that... AR pistolgrip on this? I have several AR rifles and i think the AR parts look perfect on that, but it seems like everyone is trying to make a way to adapt AR parts on everything else. Sure its practical, and economical but Id pay a premium to not have it take AR looking stuff on it. Maybe its over exposure and im just sick of it like listening to "Who Let The Dogs Out?" 50,000 times in a row.
I still cant believe the VZ 58 type rifles have plenty of different AR stock adapters and whatnot but nobody commercially made an AK-looking buttstock for it? I find that incredulous!
 
Travis Bickle said:
Not sure on what makes it a clone vice a new firearm.
Probably about as subjective as everything else that goes through the shady RCMP gun lab....basically they'll say it's a new gun if they feel like it and want to take a crack at trying to find any means they can to prohib it but I'm only assuming.
The thing is the AR180b had its merits but the AR180 was much more solid as far as materials (especially the lower).
There's nothing wrong with stamped sheet metal. The original AR18 and AR180 lowers were stamped metal. Good to go! As soon as we start milling anything I'm assuming cost is going to go up significantly.

We don't need another XCR at XCR prices. We need a NR AR180 at as low a price as possible. A NR semi auto clone of the AR180 with AR15 compatible parts is where it's at.
http://ar180s.com/
Just with a NR barrel length and make it fit FCG, bolt catch, pistol grip, STANAG mags to be compatible with AR15's to keep costs even lower. Check out that link and tell me you all wouldn't buy that rifle for $1200 Canadian if it could be had NR with AR15 FCG and mags!
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The reason I suggest milled aluminum is that because our manufacturing capabilities with CNC machining and CAD patterns and such, the cost of manufacturing has dropped significantly while the quality has significantly improved since the 1960's. I don't claim to be an expert in the matter, but if it would cost only nominally more, or perhaps even the same, to produce a high quality milled aluminum receiver, why not go for it? The horrible folding stock mechanism of the Ar180 would be a shortcoming I'd love to see addressed in a Canadian made redux.
 
I don’t need bolt gun accuracy, AR accuracy is plenty good. I need it off-the-shelf quality.
Actually if someone else with superior QC comes up with XYZ-102, that’s would be perfect.

Travis Bickle said:
Cheap, reliable and .308 are getting into that twilight zone of non realistic Canadian gun owner demands once again IMO.
They had a home run with the 102 and ####ed it up because of exactly this. If it's a .308 people want bolt action precision or hell! Then they want bolt action precision in a semi auto. Then they want loose battle rifle tolerance reliability. Then they want it for as cheap as possible. Then we get the 102.....

.308 is expensive. Especially for punching paper and ringing steel, plinking, pop can exploding, close up tactical drills for guys that are into that stuff etc etc 5.56mm can be had in bulk cheap for less than $0.50 a round still, even less when the deals are on. Low recoil means lighter design, less materials, lower cost rifle.
7.62x39mm is temporarily appealing due to current relatively low price on surplus but once the surplus dries up (it will one day) or there is a shortage, it's going to go up and then we're dependent on foreign/international world events to get affordable ammo maybe. Commercial NA produced 7.62x39 is not cheap.

The AR180 is where it's at with moderate revisions (not the AR180b) and some AR15 parts compatibility. Keep the Lower/Upper and the BCG proprietary and there is no chance in hell they can AR variant it.
Click to expand...
 
Now we need a drawing / picture / 3D cad of the new AR180 - Maple Leaf v1
Using AR15 Components, and off the shelf accessories.
A manufacturer to be lead dog.
Crowd funding to move forward.
Get Er Done
 
I can't imagine why anyone would want to build a gun for the Canadian market; anything less than 100% reliability, sub moa, modular, fully developed assessories aftermarket, all for $999 and it would be chewed up on forums from coast to coast, with half the people cheering for it to fail and the other half waiting for the price to drop to $699 and be in the 7th generation where every mating surface is lovingly hand polished by artisans in Sarnia. All for a market that can be destroyed at the stroke of a pen by some bureaucrat or rcmp lab assistant.
 
So long as it's not a 5moa shotgun like the Type 81 that Calibre tested was, there'd be worse things to spend a grand on.

Like a type 81
 
Sunchild2071 said:
I can get surplus at about $0.43 right now, .
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Right now yes.
You used to be able to get 7.62x54R for $0.25 a round about 4 years ago
Now it's about $0.40 a round and it's not anywhere near as available as it used to be.
I bought an SVT 40 for $229 about 5 years ago. Now you can barely find them. If you do they go for around $600
That's the problem with surplus. It dries up or we can't import it, then it gets way more expensive, then it disappears.
 
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technomad said:
but it's not patented for those things, XCR is patented for it's improved bolt and extractor. I don't think there were any brand new innovations like that with the M10X..

given their generous use of 'Match' and 'DMR' in their marketing, pretty sure if they had a patent or one pending they would have mentioned it about a dozen times!
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i know they got into a patent beef with magpul over the bolt hold-open/ release.

but the point is if you want to "clone" a new design which has patented features it won't happen without legal costs.

personally i think a cz clone that takes ak mags would be relatively straightforward for a x39 case cartridge.
 
Kjm1971 said:
I can't imagine why anyone would want to build a gun for the Canadian market; anything less than 100% reliability, sub moa, modular, fully developed assessories aftermarket, all for $999 and it would be chewed up on forums from coast to coast, with half the people cheering for it to fail and the other half waiting for the price to drop to $699 and be in the 7th generation where every mating surface is lovingly hand polished by artisans in Sarnia. All for a market that can be destroyed at the stroke of a pen by some bureaucrat or rcmp lab assistant.
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what ppl say on the web is not as important as what they actually spent their money on. tavor isn't close to moa costs close to 3K new (with taxes, optics and, accessories will easily go north of that) and shooters buy'em
 
Mr_Mike said:
what ppl say on the web is not as important as what they actually spent their money on. tavor isn't close to moa costs close to 3K new (with taxes, optics and, accessories will easily go north of that) and shooters buy'em
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If it was restricted they would have never sold 10 of them at that price. I doubt many of the importers really want to see something like the AR moved to non-restricted as they would lose the gouging opportunity bringing in various half-baked over priced non-restricted junk for us to drool over gives them.
 
Kjm1971 said:
If it was restricted they would have never sold 10 of them at that price. I doubt many of the importers really want to see something like the AR moved to non-restricted as they would lose the gouging opportunity bringing in various half-baked over priced non-restricted junk for us to drool over gives them.
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That's all the more reason this project must happen.
 
Kjm1971 said:
If it was restricted they would have never sold 10 of them at that price. I doubt many of the importers really want to see something like the AR moved to non-restricted as they would lose the gouging opportunity bringing in various half-baked over priced non-restricted junk for us to drool over gives them.
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Hahaha hard, blunt and totally hitting the nail on head.
I agree 100%
But again, all the more reason we need this rifle. The Canadian common mans NR semi auto black rifle. A gun for the people/for the masses.
 
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