Advice on my first AR

[Kidd X]

Did Colt say that publicly, or is that speculation?

It's not in Colt's best interest to admit they offer rifles with their name and parts from another vendor. Below are a couple videos illustrating the differences between an Expanse and a classic 6920. There is no reason why the Expanse would or should have it's roll marks in a different location, nor is there any reason to have different hammers, buffers, handguards etc. I understand some changes are to save money and reduce the cost of the product. Changing out a hammer isn't a huge cost savings and stamping barrels with different fonts and in different locations is not something you'd see from products coming from the same factory(which the opinion of many others is that the Expanse and other Colt rifles like the 6920 are not made in the same factory). Lots of other abnormalities with the so called Expanse Colt rifle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUnGhScNX24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaBsUmtXIac

 

[rkm456]

It's not in Colt's best interest to admit they offer rifles with their name and parts from another vendor. Below are a couple videos illustrating the differences between an Expanse and a classic 6920. There is no reason why the Expanse would or should have it's roll marks in a different location, nor is there any reason to have different hammers, buffers, handguards etc. I understand some changes are to save money and reduce the cost of the product. Changing out a hammer isn't a huge cost savings and stamping barrels with different fonts and in different locations is not something you'd see from products coming from the same factory(which the opinion of many others is that the Expanse and other Colt rifles like the 6920 are not made in the same factory). Lots of other abnormalities with the so called Expanse Colt rifle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUnGhScNX24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaBsUmtXIac

I realize they're generally regarded as inferior to the 6920's, but what you've posted and those videos are literally the definition of speculation.

 

[Kidd X]

I realize they're generally regarded as inferior to the 6920's, but what you've posted and those videos are literally the definition of speculation.

Well it stands to reason that Colt would not offer an equal quality product for less money, cutting into their own sales(6920 vs Expanse). It also stands to reason that the discrepancies are not minor and would lead anyone with a little sense to the conclusion that the Expanse is not a genuine 100% Colt product. Believe what you will but there's more evidence against than for..

 

[rkm456]

Well it stands to reason that Colt would not offer an equal quality product for less money, cutting into their own sales(6920 vs Expanse). It also stands to reason that the discrepancies are not minor and would lead anyone with a little sense to the conclusion that the Expanse is not a genuine 100% Colt product. Believe what you will but there's more evidence against than for..

Outside of maybe LMT (even then I'm not sure) I can't think of anyone who builds all their own parts. It's disingenuous to call one rifle that Colt pieces together a "100% Colt product" just because it happens to be made from better parts.

 

[mildot]

Outside of maybe LMT (even then I'm not sure) I can't think of anyone who builds all their own parts. It's disingenuous to call one rifle that Colt pieces together a "100% Colt product" just because it happens to be made from better parts.

I know that Colt Canada manufactures there major components, most do make there LPK. For me the "real meat & potatoes" of the rifle is the barrel and BCG. Believe it or not I like a quality receiver extension as well. I run BCM and Umbrella lowers and have no complaints.

 

[wrenchbender4]

Dont get one. Get an xcrl or a vz 58. Less hassle. You can take them more places than the range . You can get both in 556 or 7.62x39 and the xcrl can work with multiple cals. Ar 15 s are to limiting. Imho. Getting an ar is like having a built 4x4 that cant leave your yard.

 

[Kidd X]

Outside of maybe LMT (even then I'm not sure) I can't think of anyone who builds all their own parts. It's disingenuous to call one rifle that Colt pieces together a "100% Colt product" just because it happens to be made from better parts.

No one builds all of their own parts, the forgings come from a handful of sources and none of the forging houses do complete builds. A lot of internals are sourced elsewhere and some of those sources offer low end parts, hence the whole milspec and proper testing of said parts. Some companies ensure their parts are to spec and most do not. I imagine Colt does the testing on their main line guns but there is no way they would go through the hassle of testing and use the same high end parts in their cheap offering. That would kill their sales and makes absolutely no sense. Again, when you watch the videos and read around the internet the consensus is that the Expanse is nowhere near a Colt built rifle. Mildot hit the important parts which are bolt and barrel. That's not to say the other parts aren't important but the biggest problems arise from poor bolts and poor barrels.

Dont get one. Get an xcrl or a vz 58. Less hassle. You can take them more places than the range . You can get both in 556 or 7.62x39 and the xcrl can work with multiple cals. Ar 15 s are to limiting. Imho. Getting an ar is like having a built 4x4 that cant leave your yard.

The OP asked about getting an AR, offering another option is neither useful nor relevant..

 

[pilon]

No one builds all of their own parts, the forgings come from a handful of sources and none of the forging houses do complete builds. A lot of internals are sourced elsewhere and some of those sources offer low end parts, hence the whole milspec and proper testing of said parts. Some companies ensure their parts are to spec and most do not. I imagine Colt does the testing on their main line guns but there is no way they would go through the hassle of testing and use the same high end parts in their cheap offering. That would kill their sales and makes absolutely no sense. Again, when you watch the videos and read around the internet the consensus is that the Expanse is nowhere near a Colt built rifle. Mildot hit the important parts which are bolt and barrel. That's not to say the other parts aren't important but the biggest problems arise from poor bolts and poor barrels.
The OP asked about getting an AR, offering another option is neither useful nor relevant..

Without doubt the Colt expanse is not a pure Colt AR. Colt is going through some very difficult times so it would seem quite logical to try and build an entry level AR to increase sales. I agree with many experts who say that it would have been impossible for Colt to build this gun in house at this price point.

The following is my observations based on everything I have watched and read. There may be facts unknown to me that would change my conclusions.


Enter the “Expanse”

As far as I can tell Colt lowers were shipped to Bold Ideas, a Texas based company that made the Colt Competition line of ARs, to assemble into a finished Expanse rifle. Bold Ideas had no affiliation with Colt and used the Colt name under license only. They have since declared bankruptcy and are suing Colt for breach of contract. See here for details.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...-million-dollars-expanse-production-cutbacks/

I decided to buy an AR this summer and after reading all reviews I could find, including the not so flattering ones I decided on the Expanse.
The critical reviews actually pushed me in the direction of buying the Expanse because not one Expert would call the parts in the Expanse junk.The complaint in the reviews was that it was not purely Colt. Even critical reviewers went to great pains to say that they were not saying the Expanse was a poorly made rifle. Their beef was that it was not made in the Hartford Connecticut factory and not marked as such.
Maybe it was an unwise choice Colt made by tagging their name on a rifle made by Bold Ideas in a non union shop in Texas.

Did Bold Ideas make poor rifles?
It appears their Colt Competition line of rifles were well respected and liked by those that bought them. Reviews are positive. It would seem that Colt made a pretty sound decision in partnering with Bold Ideas to produce the Expanse.


Is my Expanse as good as an AR with all Colt parts? Probably not but I bought optics and a pile of ammo to shoot for what it would have cost me for a Colt LE6920. So ya I’m happy with my choice. I have a reasonably priced AR complete with Leupold optics and 1000 rounds to shoot for around $2000.00.


Seems like the Expanse saga will fade to memory unless Colt finds someone else to build them.
Forum talk has it that CDNN SPORTS bought up all, or a lot of the parts used by Bold Ideas to make the Expanse.
Want to take a look at the parts in my Expanse? They are listed here.

https://www.cdnnsports.com/gun-parts.html#brand=AR&manufacturer=COLT,COLT COMPETITION

The Barrel and Bolt and Bolt Carrier in my gun look the same, are stamped the same, and fit the description.
The single heat shield hand guard, stock and pistol grip look the same.

One thing I did do to my Expanse was to take out a couple of steel weights in the buffer and replace them with two tungsten weights to give me an H2 buffer.
I didn't mark the buffer to indicate the change I made. I think that is fitting for my first AR that has so much controversy surrounding it. An AR with a Colt lower and unmarked parts making the whole.

To the OP.
This is the route I took to get into the AR games and I did it for around $2000.00, all in, ready to head to the range!

 

[rkm456]

I know that Colt Canada manufactures there major components, most do make there LPK. For me the "real meat & potatoes" of the rifle is the barrel and BCG. Believe it or not I like a quality receiver extension as well. I run BCM and Umbrella lowers and have no complaints.

Neither my Colt Canada IUR or lower were made in house. The lower is Cerro Forge and the IUR was made by BAF. Most companies seem to use L.W. Schneider LPK's.

 

[mildot]

Neither my Colt Canada IUR or lower were made in house. The lower is Cerro Forge and the IUR was made by BAF. Most companies seem to use L.W. Schneider LPK's.

Mmm, I recall seeing the lower blanks & upper blanks at the factory being processed?

 

[rkm456]

No one builds all of their own parts, the forgings come from a handful of sources and none of the forging houses do complete builds. A lot of internals are sourced elsewhere and some of those sources offer low end parts, hence the whole milspec and proper testing of said parts. Some companies ensure their parts are to spec and most do not. I imagine Colt does the testing on their main line guns but there is no way they would go through the hassle of testing and use the same high end parts in their cheap offering. That would kill their sales and makes absolutely no sense. Again, when you watch the videos and read around the internet the consensus is that the Expanse is nowhere near a Colt built rifle. Mildot hit the important parts which are bolt and barrel. That's not to say the other parts aren't important but the biggest problems arise from poor bolts and poor barrels.

My initial line of questioning revolved around whether of not them not being "real" Colt rifles was verified, and it still isn't. People are unclear on what actually makes a Colt rifle, but are quick to throw the cheap gun under the bus.

 

[rkm456]

Mmm, I recall seeing the lower blanks & upper blanks at the factory being processed?

They might finish them, but the non CC forging marks are certainly there.

 

[Kidd X]

My initial line of questioning revolved around whether of not them not being "real" Colt rifles was verified, and it still isn't. People are unclear on what actually makes a Colt rifle, but are quick to throw the cheap gun under the bus.

Let me try and make this simple to follow.

If Colt makes a 6920 for $500 and sells it for $1000 they make $500 profit per unit.
If Colt makes the expanse for $500 and sells it for $700 they make $200 per unit and kill their own 6920/high end line sales while making less money per unit.
If Colt makes the expanse for $200 and sells it for $700 they make $500 per unit while appealing to a larger(cheaper) target market hoping for increased sales.
If Colt makes the expanse for $100 and sells it for $700 they make $600 per unit, and again they appeal to a larger(cheaper) target market hoping for increased sales.

Which of the above do you think Colt is doing? Do you honestly think they use the same quality/source of parts for the Expanse line as their 69XX line and then sell it for less margin while simultaneously killing their sales of their higher and reputable 69XX line?? Give your head a shake.

The fact that the expanse uses a heavier contoured barrel and is missing markings(as well as weird out of font and out of place markings) should be a huge clue. Why would Colt spend the time and effort to machine two(at least) separate barrel profiles for what you and others believe are identical guns, the 6920 and the expanse? If you're pulling parts from the 69XX line to build expanse rifles then you would be grabbing standard government profile chrome lined barrels and not some weird whackado med con barrel. Same goes for the other odd parts like the hammer and the clearly contract built stocks. It doesn't make sense unless cost cutting or rather margin growing was the driving factor behind the weird and without a doubt cheaper parts.

Did you read pilon's post and the link to "the firearm blog" and the lawsuit from "bold Ideas"?? The fact Colt is licensing out their name and having rifles built outside the Hartford plant is another huge clue as to the quality of the gun and the fact that the guns are not traditional 100% Colt guns.

If you want to believe that the expanse is a genuine quality Colt rifle due simply to the roll mark on the side then be my guest, it's your money and your opinion. I could buy a Colt lower and slap a Bushmaster upper on it and call it a Colt gun as well. I'm simply saying that the word on the street and the evidence supports the belief that the expanse is a low end rifle(compared to a standard Colt 69XX series) that isn't built by Colt and certainly does not have the same pedigree as previous Colt carbines.

As far as I know DD has one plant, BCM has one plant, LMT has one plant, Noveske has one plant, Larue has one plant, Colt Canada has one plant. None of the above have a second plant nor do any of them offer a cheaper line/rifle. Think about that...

 

[Kidd X]

Neither my Colt Canada IUR or lower were made in house. The lower is Cerro Forge and the IUR was made by BAF. Most companies seem to use L.W. Schneider LPK's.

You are correct, no one casts and forges their own guns from start to finish, they select a forging house to supply blanks which are very crude roughly shaped receivers. The selecting and finishing is done in house by the major players and that is where the difference is made. Other companies simply buy completed receivers from others or other companies who only do receivers. Essentially building a "parts" gun but calling it their own.

The IUR forend/rail is not an overly critical component so I wouldn't worry about it but I see your point. The MRR isn't CC's design or IP either, they pay rights to LMT for it if memory serves.

 

[rkm456]

If you want to believe that the expanse is a genuine quality Colt rifle due simply to the roll mark on the side then be my guest, it's your money and your opinion. I could buy a Colt lower and slap a Bushmaster upper on it and call it a Colt gun as well. I'm simply saying that the word on the street and the evidence supports the belief that the expanse is a low end rifle(compared to a standard Colt 69XX series) that isn't built by Colt and certainly does not have the same pedigree as previous Colt carbines.

As far as I know DD has one plant, BCM has one plant, LMT has one plant, Noveske has one plant, Larue has one plant, Colt Canada has one plant. None of the above have a second plant nor do any of them offer a cheaper line/rifle. Think about that...

I reiterate, I'm not speaking to the quality (or potential lack thereof) of the Expanse rifles. The lower is Colt roll marked and the upper is marked the similar to other Colt uppers (BAF square and capital "C") They probably don't make the LPK (no one seems to make their own LPK) The barrel also might be made elsewhere, as far as I'm aware LaRue and Noveske spec and finish but don't actually produce their own barrels yet no one harps on them, nor should they, for outsourcing. For whatever reason people have decided to start playing fast and loose with what makes a "Real" gun because of the Expanse's price point.

 

[redivivus]

OP: An additional one to consider is the LMT MRP series. Comes with a monolithic receiver, match grade mid length 16” barrel that is interchangeable (for different lengths and type eg. SS) and all the goodies from factory. As a bonus you get impeccable fit and finish and startling accuracy. I believe they retail for ~$2300ish and for me, is just as good as my HK MR308 in fit, finish, reliability and accuracy.

 

[Kidd X]

I reiterate, I'm not speaking to the quality (or potential lack thereof) of the Expanse rifles. The lower is Colt roll marked and the upper is marked the similar to other Colt uppers (BAF square and capital "C") They probably don't make the LPK (no one seems to make their own LPK) The barrel also might be made elsewhere, as far as I'm aware LaRue and Noveske spec and finish but don't actually produce their own barrels yet no one harps on them, nor should they, for outsourcing. For whatever reason people have decided to start playing fast and loose with what makes a "Real" gun because of the Expanse's price point.

No one is playing fast and loose. The expanse is not a traditional Colt built rifle, that is the barrel and bolt are not Colt(and many other parts) which is the heart of the rifle. Compared to any other AR offered by Colt, the expanse is a different animal. Yes Larue and Noveske source their barrel blanks from somewhere else, they also aren't trying to sell complete guns for $700 and both build very high end reputable rifles.

OP: An additional one to consider is the LMT MRP series. Comes with a monolithic receiver, match grade mid length 16” barrel that is interchangeable (for different lengths and type eg. SS) and all the goodies from factory. As a bonus you get impeccable fit and finish and startling accuracy. I believe they retail for ~$2300ish and for me, is just as good as my HK MR308 in fit, finish, reliability and accuracy.

The OP has indicated that he might want to or like to modify the rifle at a later date which makes monolithic uppers a no go.

 

[redivivus]

The OP has indicated that he might want to or like to modify the rifle at a later date which makes monolithic uppers a no go.

For my own knowledge this time - except the rail (for obvious reasons), what modifications does a monolithic upper preclude ? The barrels are easily replaceable and the upper does not impede access to any other component that I can think of.

 

[Leg]

I reiterate, I'm not speaking to the quality (or potential lack thereof) of the Expanse rifles. The lower is Colt roll marked and the upper is marked the similar to other Colt uppers (BAF square and capital "C") They probably don't make the LPK (no one seems to make their own LPK) The barrel also might be made elsewhere, as far as I'm aware LaRue and Noveske spec and finish but don't actually produce their own barrels yet no one harps on them, nor should they, for outsourcing. For whatever reason people have decided to start playing fast and loose with what makes a "Real" gun because of the Expanse's price point.

Oh for ####s sake. They are being sued by the company that they paid to build them. The very first Expanse rifles didn’t even use Colt lowers, the markings were all wrong. There was such a ####storm over it that they switched to Colt lowers in order to give the appearance of a Colt.

No one is talking about what makes a “real” gun. They are talking about what makes a real Colt. Companies have always purchased products from other companies and sold it under their own branding. The difference here is that they’ve contracted them to build their own design so people think they’re getting a Colt M4 when they are clearly not.

I doubt we’d be having the same conversation if we were talking about a big ticket item. The Colt M16A1 replica has a MSRP of $2500 and it’s not built by Colt either. Some will buy it purely for the name but others will stay away because you’re paying a premium for that name but not getting a genuine Colt product.

There own marketing has always made a big deal about others copying their designs “If it’s not a Colt..”. What would happen if VW contracted some manufacturing plant in China to build cars and slap a VW Golf label on it as long as the parts fit and it looked like VW Golf but on closer inspection had numerous inconsistencies with Golfs that came out of VW factories?

 

[Leg]

For the OPs budget I’d recommend a Colt 6920. The prices are very affordable these days and they hold their value well.

Shoot it bone stock until you get enough experience and exposure to others setups to see what it is about yours that you like and dislike and then go from there. Too many people sink untold amounts of money on a brand new rifle that doubles the cost but does little to improve the performance.