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Glenn Kelley

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I have a new to me Safari Arms Kentuckian in .45 caliber .
I started out with 40 gr of FFF, a .440 ball and a .008 patch .The patch is pillow ticking . Spit patch. It put the second and third shots touching in the bull but the patches I recovered had a perfect round hole burned in the centre . Other patches were 3/4 burned and some I never found .Accuracy went into the dumpster .
After the last shot I was gathering my stuff and noticed that the patch from that last shot was in the groove at the end of my range rod .I had pushed the ball though it .

The next time I took it out I used .433 balls . These will drop down the barrel . I didn't change anything else . I recovered one patch that had a hole burned in the centre . Later shots I couldn't find anything but the occasional small charred scrap . Accuracy was dismal .

Suggestions , help and encouragement need .
Thanks in advance .

Glenn
 
Whenever I've had that happen, it was the material I was using. Your load seems reasonable. Normally pillow ticking is pretty good but find an old T-shirt with a tight weave & 100% cotton and try that first. You could also go a little thicker, depending on your bore. I usually run either 0.010" or 0.015" depending on the ball vs. bore size of the rifle. You'll be able to tell right away when you go to load, if it's too thick. I just use old dress shirts and actually a lot of the kids old clothes seem to have great material for it.
 
Something is really wrong if you burn your patches. I suggest changing your lube to something based on water. My "Moose Milk" recipe is 1 part water soluble oil such as Ballistol or cutting oil, 1 part Pinesol, 1 part Hydrogen Peroxide and 20 parts water. I have never had a burnt patch in thousands of rounds. The pillow ticking I use is pure cotton and has light brown stripes. Are you absolutely certain your pillow ticking is pure cotton and not some synthetic fibre? My brown striped fabric compresses to .008" but would normally measure about .018. Otherwise your load, ball size, etc seems about correct. I have best accuracy with 50 gr FFFg in my 45 cal rifles but that is not your issue.
 
There is a formula for getting the patch thickness correct.

Measure the bore then measure the diameter of the ball, subtract the ball diameter from the bore diameter. Your ideal patch should be .003 inches thicker than the difference. The patch should slightly deform the ball so the grooves are filled completely for best accuracy and velocity consistency.

I have used this method for years on several different front stuffers and it has never failed me.

I use alter linen or some similar linen that I know will have consistently reliable thickness and match by ball/mini from there.

Your only other option is to cast maxis with grease grooves. The thing is, the bore diameters on black powder rifles from offshore are notorious for having different diameters, so you will have to measure your bore diameter and purchase a mold with a diameter slightly larger for best results.

Black powder is a wonderful way to go once you understand how to shoot it well.

Single shot muzzle stuffers are different from cap and ball revolvers. Still, the same principles apply. You want the balls to be larger in diameter than the bore by at least a few thousandths. Hollow base lead projectiles work pretty well but again work best when they exceed bore diameter. The hollow base is supposed to obdurate into the grooves better but that isn't always the case.
 
A .008 patch takes up .016 of space around the ball. A .440 ball needs a thicker patch, a .433 ball is way too small. You need at least a .010 or higher. There should be some good resistance to seat it. Also a better lube not only to soften the residue in the bore but to protect the patch. It's not unusual to not find the fired patch every time. Ol' Flinter is correct in that a 50gr load would work better, especially with a nice tight fitting ball.
 
I think that you would be wise to buy a micrometer and know how to use it. When I buy patching material, I take a micrometer with me to Fabricland and measure the thickness of the various choices of 100% cotton until I find something close to what I want. When I have used worn cloth salvaged from something like worn out bead sheets, I have had poor accuracy because the thickness varies from place to place on the sheet. The problem with asking for something like pillow ticking or denim, is that they come in a variety of thicknesses and unless you measure that thickness, you don't know what you are buying.

In terms of what thickness is best, I would gauge that by how hard it is to load the ball vs whether or not the patch is burning. On a new barrel with a smooth bore, any burning should be only a ring of holes around where the ball was and you can go up a bit from there. On an old and rough bore you may have to put a buffer between the powder and the patch. On one or two of my guns with rough bores, I have poured one or two powder measures of corn meal on top of the powder and that seems to help protect the patch until it reaches the smooth portion of the barrel

If you are finding the gun becoming hard to load as the day wears on, you may need to use wetter patches to reduce the amount of fouling build up

cheers mooncoon
 
Thanks for the replies .
The .440 ball with the .008 ticking works in my Pedersoli flintlock with no problems that is why I started with it . In 10 years I've put less than 100 shots through that gun .
The ticking is very consistent in thickness I've miked it many times .
I usually wet the patch with spit but I did use TC Bore Butter with the same results.
I have tried to measure the bore with a vernier but it has 5 grooves . If I run a ball down the bore and extract it with the screw puller I can put on my range rod will I get a good enough slug ?
I haven't tried it because it's going to have 5 grooves in it .

I assumed that the .440 ball was tight because it cut through the patch material .

Glenn
 
There are typically 3 thicknesses of cotton (not the stretchy stuff) identified as 6, 8 and 10 ounce. I shoot 40, 45, 50 and 54 cal rifles using balls that are .010" smaller than the bore. The best accuracy I can obtain is consistent with use of the 8 ounce thickness denim or the brown striped pillow ticking (I can find the ticking only at Walmarts or fabric shops in the USA). I suggest you buy half a yard of the 8 ounce cotton denim, wash it twice and try it. I am confident you will see much better results than you are currently achieving, and no burning... Looking fwd to your progress report. I use my Moose Milk lube in summer and Bore Butter for cold weather hunting with comparable accuracy but the Bore Butter will not facilitate as many shots between wipes - not a problem when hunting.
 
I spent a hour in a fabric store with the mike and found some fabric that was .012 and nothing that was thicker .
I got out and shot today . Everything is the same . The one interesting consistency is that the third and fourth shots went into the bull just like the other times I've shot it . Today the fifth shot also went to the bull then things fell apart again .

I'm trying a lead solvent in the barrel . I've cleaned it to a clean patch each time I've shot it but today started with No. 9 and can't get a clean patch .

Who in S, Ontario has a good selection of balls . .451 won't start , .440 is a bit loose I can start it with my thumb with the thicker patch .

I also need .437 for the .45 cal underhammer that's in the mail .

Glenn
 
Glenn Kelley said:
I spent a hour in a fabric store with the mike and found some fabric that was .012 and nothing that was thicker .
Click to expand...

try asking for some light denim; it can range from a low of .015" to a high of .025" or more. It sounds as if your patches are a bit thin. Also have you checked the fired patches to see if they have holes burned in them?

cheers mooncoon
 
I'm a complete newbie with BP but it seems like getting s consistent pressure on the rod helps a lot. Buddy told me to put the butt of the gun on a bathroom scale and bush down until I reached 14 lbs. once you know what it feels like it's not too hard to repeat (I think!). I get decent accuracy so I'm gonna stay with the idea.
 
Glenn Kelley said:
I spent a hour in a fabric store with the mike and found some fabric that was .012 and nothing that was thicker .
I got out and shot today . Everything is the same . The one interesting consistency is that the third and fourth shots went into the bull just like the other times I've shot it . Today the fifth shot also went to the bull then things fell apart again .

I'm trying a lead solvent in the barrel . I've cleaned it to a clean patch each time I've shot it but today started with No. 9 and can't get a clean patch .

Who in S, Ontario has a good selection of balls . .451 won't start , .440 is a bit loose I can start it with my thumb with the thicker patch .

I also need .437 for the .45 cal underhammer that's in the mail .

Glenn
Click to expand...

Leading of the bore should not be your problem as the lead balls never contact the rifling. Also, Hoppe's #9 is for smokeless powder: use hot water or water with a bit of liquid dishwash detergent to clean a BP barrel. The fabric for patches must be a tight-weave cotton without any synthetic threads that will melt or burn when exposed to the flames. The most commonly available candidate is cotton denim (not the stretchy kind). The "8 ounce") weight denim should work for you as it has for me (see my previous comments) . After washing, my 8 ounce denim measures.024" lightly compressed using a dial caliper but can be compressed to .006" using a micrometer. Don't give up on this....there is a solution but we just have to find it.
 
Just to confuse things today I took the new to me Hopkins and Allen .45 cal out and used the same load . Everything worked as it should ,with no holes or burnt spots in the patches .

Ol'Flinter,
The bore looked dull even though it returned a clean patch and brightened up after the Hoppes . Hot water is my usual method to clean the barrel .
I remeasured the patch material , the dial caliper measures consistently .002 thicker than the mike when I use the ratchet on it's barrel .

I know at least once the ball pushed through the patch when I was loading it . The patch came out of the barrel on the range red once .

Glenn
 
So do you notice any irregularities in the barrel when you are washing the barrel out after a shoot? I mean you've got the patch on the range rod and pushing it down the barrel and drawing the hot water back up. After a few passes and its coming clean, do you notice any places where the going gets a bit harder or easier?
 
Glenn Kelley said:
I remeasured the patch material , the dial caliper measures consistently .002 thicker than the mike when I use the ratchet on it's barrel .
Click to expand...

.002" difference in patch thickness should not be a problem as long as all of the patches are from the same batch. As long as the micrometer zeros correctly, I would go with it for an accurate dimension. When using a micrometer to measure patching, I screw it slightly snug on the basis that a lightly crushed dimension is probably more repeatable when measuring something that is compressible

cheers mooncoon
 
Petew ,
You inspired me . I thought for a minute and went downstairs and ran 2 patched balls down the barrel and then extracted them .
First was a .433 ball , patch was lubed with TC Bore Butter .When the patch was peeled off the extracted ball there were tiny perforations at the points of the rifling .
Next was a .44 patched ball . Results were the same but the perforations were much bigger I think I could push my finger through the patch .

I think I have a barrel to fix.

Glenn
 
Glenn Kelley said:
I think I could push my finger through the patch .
I think I have a barrel to fix.
Click to expand...

If you are saying that a rough bore is chafing through the patch, try running a tightly patched bore brush up and down the barrel, with valve grinding compound on the patch. Use medium or coarse grit; it does not remove very much but it might take a bit of the sharp edge off of the rust pits. Also try using a thicker patch with a compensating smaller ball and finally on one or two of my guns which have badly pitted breach ends of the bore, a measure of corn meal on top of the powder may help and certainly won't hurt. Just be sure to measure the amount so that you have the same weight each time to push out the bore

cheers mooncoon
 
Mooncoon ,
No I don't think this is rust pits . These holes are precisely spaced around the edge of the impression left by the ball . There are 2 holes for each land of the rifling .

Glenn
 
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