Modern Varmint style uppers and lowers

[xdmer]

I just want to clarify here, that my choices are not to support having a cheaper build. I like having replaceable brass deflectors, for maintenance and customizing ejection patterns (will there be options?).

I don't want a forward assist but I can see the desire, however, a lighter trimmer rifle is better in my opinion. For me it's I'll take it or leave it, either is okay. My preference for 7075 is for a tougher more durable material with less bulk for strength in the receiver set. This will hold up better over long term parts swaps. (please correct me if I'm wrong).

This is an interesting development and good choice. My preference would be 7075, integral brass deflector isn't needed, nor is a forward assist.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

Absolutely. Like jiff says, just very excited about the possibilities.

If one model of upper is all that is on the table at this time, I encourage you to consider how it may seem to the RCMP if you made a fully featured upper for the MV-S then produced a featureless/slick side upper in the future vs making a featureless/slick side upper first, then produce a fully featured upper that has more/different features than the MV-S or MV initially had. Seems like a possible excuse for another examination/gauntlet. Its easy to travel the road that has allready been snow plowed, might as well clear the snow infront of your shop while you have the tractor warm from plowing your drive way. Lol

Im sure you have also allready considered this, but your choice in upper style will also have an effect on who your priority target audience is. Perhaps a thread with a poll for different versions at different costs would help level out where the best choice of action is.

If these get approval, I hope you will offer custom matched serials once again.

From past experience it is easy to add or remove a feature like forward assist or shell deflector without upsetting anything. It seems cost is paramount to most.
No firm decision has been made yet but from the flood of emails and suggestions to banter to downright obnoxious posts on the forums it seems forward assist is a low priority but price is a high one. You can't have it both ways.

Custom serial numbers like your MH and MV have pose a time consuming logistical nightmare and to keep costs down are not being offered, at least at this time.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

I just want to clarify here, that my choices are not to support having a cheaper build. I like having replaceable brass deflectors, for maintenance and customizing ejection patterns (will there be options?).

I don't want a forward assist but I can see the desire, however, a lighter trimmer rifle is better in my opinion. For me it's I'll take it or leave it, either is okay. My preference for 7075 is for a tougher more durable material with less bulk for strength in the receiver set. This will hold up better over long term parts swaps. (please correct me if I'm wrong).

I think we are on the same page.
I prefer to put the ATRS brand on quality products. There already is a lot of low quality crap available.
7 series material is my choice. Many ARs are made of 6061 and they work, but I believe that the 7075 will last longer and withstand stresses and wear and tear better. To try and make up for the difference in material costs a replaceable shell deflector is what I would prefer.
The current shell deflector we employ on the MVs works extremely well even for left handed shooters. IF someone wanted to modify a shell deflector to achieve some goal we have them in stock if it did not work out as they planned and they are not expensive. If the question is " are we going to be offering an assortment of shell deflectors?" the answer is not at this time, what we have works and to spend more R&D on different shell deflectors will only increase the end cost.
The current design sends the fired casings out of the port at about the 1:30 position from the shooter, typically in about a 3 foot diameter spot in front of the shooter, which for most situations is pretty close to ideal.

 

[emerson]

From past experience it is easy to add or remove a feature like forward assist or shell deflector without upsetting anything. It seems cost is paramount to most.
No firm decision has been made yet but from the flood of emails and suggestions to banter to downright obnoxious posts on the forums it seems forward assist is a low priority but price is a high one. You can't have it both ways.

Custom serial numbers like your MH and MV have pose a time consuming logistical nightmare and to keep costs down are not being offered, at least at this time.

Cost is huge for the masses. Walmart does ok. Boutique businesses are fun and pure, but often unprofitable. Bit of a crossroads here for ATRS. Think Magpul....
NR, 5.56, sub $2K sells. Make a hunting calibers option, sell more. You are trying to sell a rifle to those who don't know about CGN. Production delays kill impulse purchases. It's easy to tweak options after selling hundreds of basic rifles. Again, hunters are a much bigger market.

 

[xdmer]

That sounds great to me, knowing that parts are available is good, anyone can use a file

I can see many different calibers being used, who knows what differences slight changes will make? I honestly don't know. I'm just speaking from my experiences with XCR's - different beasts I know.

I think we are on the same page.
I prefer to put the ATRS brand on quality products. There already is a lot of low quality crap available.
7 series material is my choice. Many ARs are made of 6061 and they work, but I believe that the 7075 will last longer and withstand stresses and wear and tear better. To try and make up for the difference in material costs a replaceable shell deflector is what I would prefer.
The current shell deflector we employ on the MVs works extremely well even for left handed shooters. IF someone wanted to modify a shell deflector to achieve some goal we have them in stock if it did not work out as they planned and they are not expensive. If the question is " are we going to be offering an assortment of shell deflectors?" the answer is not at this time, what we have works and to spend more R&D on different shell deflectors will only increase the end cost.
The current design send the fired casings out of the port at about the 1:30 position from the shooter, typically in about a 3 foot diameter spot in front of the shooter, which for situations is pretty close to ideal.

 

[yohann160]

7075 aluminum - NO forward assist - uses AR parts

 

[greentips]

I would prefer a 7 series because my eyeballs are pretty to close to this thing.

Forward assist - I don't mind paying for it but I won't cry if it doesn't have one either.

 

[riptide]

Personally I think the other guys may get their privates slapped for essentially encouraging folks to purposefully thwart the laws in a work around of how the laws were intended, despite being poorly worded and creating a loophole. It concerns me that if parts of the firearms community keep pushing the envelope the backlash could be draconian given the love of re-interpretting and re-writing the laws the RCMP tends to have.

Having been in this industry for a very long time and invested in the firearms community for over 40 years I have seen and experienced the government in action in regards to firearms. Frankly I think if we push too hard, knowing that the feds now account to no-one and have more power it seems than the elected government thanks to the turd who handed over absolute power to the RCMP when it comes to guns, scares me a bit of how they will react. I do not condone this but am a realist basing my thoughts on past experiences.

ATRS... not to be an ass... but isn't this exactly what you guys did with the MV, MH and are contemplating/attempting to do with the MV sporter? Not that you're the only ones who've done this, and not that I'm complaining as I think they're great products... but I'm not seeing many differences between between what MD is planning/attempting and what you've (thankfully) said you're looking into doing.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

ATRS... not to be an ass... but isn't this exactly what you guys did with the MV, MH and are contemplating/attempting to do with the MV sporter? Not that you're the only ones who've done this, and not that I'm complaining as I think they're great products... but I'm not seeing many differences between between what MD is planning/attempting and what you've (thankfully) said you're looking into doing.

The MH and MV were only ever sold as completed and test rifles. Every one of which left here with minimally an 18.6" barrel. Any secondary uppers also were supplied with NR length barrels, so there is no room for anyone to claim that either platform has a restricted cousin of any sort. now with that being said we have no control over someone breaking the law and shortening the barrel effectively making the rifle a prohibited device, or changing the barrel to make it a restricted firearm. But as the manufacturer I am able to look any Judge in the eye and claim that we have never offered or made a restricted length barrel for either rifle, so if some idiot has installed 1 he had to modify the upper in the case of the MV or had a custom barrel made somewhere that employs the proprietary barrel extension. This was done to protect the legal status and the owners of our rifles.

We certainly are not suggesting to anyone however to purchase what we hope will be classified as a NR firearm and then play games with the government when you install an under 18.6" barrel. The law is pretty clear that you have 30 days to inform the CFC that you have completed assembly of a firearm and that the FRT# has to amended to reflect the change from "receiver only" to completed firearm once the firearm is complete and has a barrel installed. To counsel someone to pull the upper off every 29 days in the case of under 18.6" barrels in order to skirt having to register the gun as a restricted firearm in my opinion is simply trolling for a hassle, for ALL of us.

With Ars all being restricted this does not really matter, but purposefully trying to blur the lines between Non Restricted and Restricted with games could backfire badly.
Needless to say if we get the NR classification we are hoping for, we will not have any say in what folks do with their stripped upper/lowers. The onus then is on them to comply, or not to comply with the laws, it is out of our hands. IF short barrels are installed onto any of these platforms it will create some FRT#s that reflect restricted legal status.
We tried as much as possible to protect the legal classification of our MH and MV making it as hard as possible to simply swap out barrels to create a restricted firearms class.
We can only do so much however to try and protect the many from the few who just have to screw with things and create potential unintended consequences like the Swiss Arms debacle that effected many firearms owners.

My fear is that our development will be in vain in short order due to guys just having to push the envelope to the max. The current mag capacity and fitment issue is proof of what happens when guys just can't shut up or leave things alone.

Maccabee got a NR legal status on their project and good on them. But do you really think the SFSS/RCMP would have granted it if they had diclosed that you should install a short barrel and play games with the CFC every 29 days?

 

[Daver_II]

^^

AH Canada....

Where the government thinks it isn't a matter if, but rather when you will break the law....


It seems easy to me.... 18.5+" and over NR....
18.5" and under its R

So you make it short, you register... and the rules apply...
You make it long.... have at her in the bush.

Shouldn't need to call anyone.

 

[Brianma65]

So by serializing the upper, guys can then take there lower and throw a restricted upper on there?
The call the RCMP and have it changed to restricted status?

Then all they have to do is swap back and forth, from NR to R?

If so, what happens if somebody is doing this frequently, and one day, in a rush,forgets to swap from R to NR,
Goes in the bush and gets caught?

Could he just say ,uh, I forgot ?

A 16 inch barrel looks very similar to an 18.

I see threads,where people in a rush,forget their mags,bolts ,etc
So I think this would be possible.

Or do I got it all wrong.. lol

 

[xdmer]

^ I think it's very possible. I rather not play devils advocate on either side. I don't like it, but since this hasn't been done before, and there is no precedents on how the SFSS/RCMP handle this, I rather not test it or play games. I do think like Daver_II said, but nothing is that simple for us.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

So by serializing the upper, guys can then take there lower and throw a restricted upper on there?
The call the RCMP and have it changed to restricted status?

Then all they have to do is swap back and forth, from NR to R?

If so, what happens if somebody is doing this frequently, and one day, in a rush,forgets to swap from R to NR,
Goes in the bush and gets caught?

Could he just say ,uh, I forgot ?

A 16 inch barrel looks very similar to an 18.

I see threads,where people in a rush,forget their mags,bolts ,etc
So I think this would be possible.

Or do I got it all wrong.. lol

Ignorance of the law is not a defense. Forgetfulness I doubt would be a defense either. I believe that once the restricted status is applied it requires a verifier's report to change it. I can see Firearms Legal Defense being a REAL good investment for some guys.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

^ I think it's very possible. I rather not play devils advocate on either side. I don't like it, but since this hasn't been done before, and there is no precedents on how the SFSS/RCMP handle this, I rather not test it or play games. I do think like Daver_II said, but nothing is that simple for us.

Agreed. Being the test dummy is going to be EXPENSIVE. Maybe I am really more conservative than I knew? Or just have waaaay too much at stake to play games with major consequences for the loser.

 

[Brianma65]

Ignorance of the law is not a defense. Forgetfulness I doubt would be a defense either. I believe that once the restricted status is applied it requires a verifier's report to change it. I can see Firearms Legal Defense being a REAL good investment for some guys.

I know ignorance is not a defense,don't mean dumdazzs won't try it.
And when threatened , by jail time with bubba,lol
They'll try and place blame elsewhere.

As they have no backbone, to be accountable.

 

[Brian46]

So by serializing the upper, guys can then take there lower and throw a restricted upper on there?
The call the RCMP and have it changed to restricted status?

Then all they have to do is swap back and forth, from NR to R?

If so, what happens if somebody is doing this frequently, and one day, in a rush,forgets to swap from R to NR,
Goes in the bush and gets caught?

Could he just say ,uh, I forgot ?

A 16 inch barrel looks very similar to an 18.

I see threads,where people in a rush,forget their mags,bolts ,etc
So I think this would be possible.

Or do I got it all wrong.. lol

no, you would have restricted uppers and NR uppers for the same lower, no call required for a status change when adding the lower to upper.

The same problem with the ACR, xcr, etc that are quick caliber change rifles. We can play the what if game all day, but fact remains the SFSS has yet to Crack down.

It even gets more complicated with multiple ACR's with multiple caliber conversions and lengths to keep it straight, especially with a status change sometimes being required depending on the swap. Not to mention the waiting period where the CFC instructs you to leave the gun in the safe while you wait for paperwork to be processed.

Way simpler with serial on uppers, then there is only need for one lower rather than multiple rifles to fill in the gap for status processing times

 

[yohann160]

Why it's a well known fact that people do that with ACR's and XCR's all the time...

 

[xdmer]

I think he meant it as a figure of speech. As in that is not the intent of the design, or commercially offered rifle from either vendor. I can see the SSFS or RCMP seeing this as playing games, and doing something that was 'not intended' because it's technically possible. (they seem to love dual use now)

As in play stupid games .... this is how 'loopholes' are created from thin air, and how we all end up getting hammered. This is why we can't have nice things....

Who here has suggested doing this except yourself?

 

[riptide]

Agreed. Being the test dummy is going to be EXPENSIVE. Maybe I am really more conservative than I knew? Or just have waaaay too much at stake to play games with major consequences for the loser.

Agreed. I do not have to like the laws... and I can want to change them all I want. But there's no chance in hell that I'd be willing to break them when the consequences are as severe as they would be. At the very least it would be a loss of all my firearms and a hefty legal bill to stay out of jail with no criminal record. I can have the shorter barrels on my ARs. The NR stuff gets 18.5". Besides... is 2-4 inches all that big a deal (yes I'm aware how that sounds)?

 

[xdmer]

XCR's have specific pistol designs, registered as such I think, or more specifically XCR-L Micro. Rifle / Restricted Rifle would depend on barrel, but they only come in 18.6 in Canada and I've never seen the micro / pistol barrels or uppers for sale here.

The design, intention and components are clearly restricted and non restricted.

Why it's a well known fact that people do that with ACR's and XCR's all the time...