to heck with load development

Longwalker said:
Aw c'mon Dogleg, where's your sense of humour? I wrote the original post as a way of getting a discussion going. Seemed to achieve that, in a limited sense anyway. i actually do pay attention to things like throat length and tight vs. loose chambers, and case weight ( capacity) but despite that, when loading for instance for my current 4 .222 rem varmint rifles, all seem to like a load that I have settled on, using IMR4198, Nosler BT 40 gr, and Rem 7-1/2 primers. No need to test further to get 1/8" better accuracy.
I have found that all my 3 current 30-06 rifles like H4350 and 180 grain cup and core bullets of almost any flat base design and Rem or Win LR primers loads to produce 2700 fps MV. The accuracy doesn't vary by more than 1/2" at 100 yds. compared with other loads tailored for specific rifles.
All my 4 various 7x57's like H4350 and 160's at 2600fps.
My 4 .357H&H rifles like RL15 and 270 gr, Hornady or almost any other bullet of that weight at with any case I have tried and a magnum primer at 2700 fps. I'm still working on a a good generic 300 gr. .375 load.
My several .308 Win. rifles like Varget and 165's ,etc, etc.
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A good 300 grain .375 load is a 77 - 78 grain charge of 760 (or H414) and whatever bullets you want. As often as not the same
seems to work with the same charge. It's an easy way to get softs and solids shooting together.
 
For me, an inaccurate rifle is no fun. So, I develop a load for most of them.

But, there are some rifles that are used in applications where 'accuracy" of the rifle is not an issue. CQB comes to mind. It is fast shooting against the clock at 35 to 10 yards. Accuracy of the rifle is not an issue. All that matters is 100% reliability.

I have a number of 223 rifles I use for CQB, plus a couple of Norc M14s and some SKSs. For the 308s I load a generic, fairly mild load under a 147 FMJ. It works in all the 308s and has mild recoil. It is my 308 plinker load.

For the 223s, I load 2 loads. A 90% power load and a 60% power load. A few ARs need full power to cycle. the rest seem to be over-gassed, so I load a very mild load for them. The milder recoil helps in CQB, too.

But, When I set out to select the "mild" 223 load, I fired 19 to 22 g in 0.5 increments out of all 4 rifles at 100 yards. This confirmed the mild loads worked and gave me an idea if there was some kind of accuracy node. There wasn't.
 
Longwalker said:
No need for scary pictures - I don't just pick a load at random. Yes, i agree that all those variables are important, and to ignore them can be dangerous. I do account for things like case capacity when choosing a load. I have been reloading for more than 30 years and have developed loads for more than 50 rifles so have a bit of experience. I no longer try for the maximum speed possible at the maximum pressure allowed in a particular firearm. And I just don't care any more if my load is 50 or 100 fps slower than the maximum possible, or 1/4" less accurate than the ultimate a rifle is capable of. I want a good load that works very well in any rifle I put it in. Like a decent factory load. For example, I have three 30-06 rifles at present. I shoot the same load in all three that was developed in the one with the shortest throat and tightest chamber. Developed the original load in the heaviest brand cases. No big surprise, that load in my tightest chambered rifle also produces the highest speeds, and I assume pressures. But all three shoot that load quite well. Why have three loads for three rifles? Same with my four .222 rifles, my two 7x64's and four 7x57's, two .308's and four .375 H&H's etc.
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In modern rifles most of those cartridges would be fairly forgiving. I can see how a separate load for each would be tedious.

That just might be the most challenging reloading of all, working up a good velocity and accuracy for a number of rifles.
 
I am with Longwalker on this one. I, too am an inveterate gun trader. After 50 plus years of reloading, I now go to Ken Waters' Pet Loads manual when I acquire a new-to-me rifle in an unfamiliar caliber for me. Example, the Ruger #1 I just picked up in 7x57. In my experience picking Waters' top load for the bullet weight I want to shoot usually results in 1" or sub 1" 3 shot groups at 1oo yds. Good enough for the hunting I do.

I once was working up a series of loads for a Sako full-stock carbine in 30-06. Loaded a bunch of ladder test loads with 150 gr., a bunch more with 165 gr,, and finally a bunch with 180 gr. At the range I found the gun would shoot all of the 150 gr loads into 1 1/2" at 100 yds. Both the bottom of the ladder & the top. Same result with the 165 gr. and the 180 gr. test loads. I even found it would shoot all 3 bullet weights into a sub 2" group at the same point of aim. Rather than continue with the testing, I took the rest of the test ammo hunting. If memory serves I killed 2 Antelope bucks, a couple of Mule Bucks, and several Whitetails - all 1 shot kills - with the rest of that test ammo. Sold that gun to Longwalker. Don't know if he still has it, but it was for sure an unusual gun!
 
daddylonglegs said:
I am with Longwalker on this one. I, too am an inveterate gun trader. After 50 plus years of reloading, I now go to Ken Waters' Pet Loads manual when I acquire a new-to-me rifle in an unfamiliar caliber for me. Example, the Ruger #1 I just picked up in 7x57. In my experience picking Waters' top load for the bullet weight I want to shoot usually results in 1" or sub 1" 3 shot groups at 1oo yds. Good enough for the hunting I do.

I once was working up a series of loads for a Sako full-stock carbine in 30-06. Loaded a bunch of ladder test loads with 150 gr., a bunch more with 165 gr,, and finally a bunch with 180 gr. At the range I found the gun would shoot all of the 150 gr loads into 1 1/2" at 100 yds. Both the bottom of the ladder & the top. Same result with the 165 gr. and the 180 gr. test loads. I even found it would shoot all 3 bullet weights into a sub 2" group at the same point of aim. Rather than continue with the testing, I took the rest of the test ammo hunting. If memory serves I killed 2 Antelope bucks, a couple of Mule Bucks, and several Whitetails - all 1 shot kills - with the rest of that test ammo. Sold that gun to Longwalker. Don't know if he still has it, but it was for sure an unusual gun!
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Still have it, still shoots amazingly well. Actually was the one that started me on this path of one load for all. Thanks Daddylonglegs for selling it to me!
 
Dogleg said:
A good 300 grain .375 load is a 77 - 78 grain charge of 760 (or H414) and whatever bullets you want. As often as not the same
seems to work with the same charge. It's an easy way to get softs and solids shooting together.
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thanks Dogleg, I have not yet tried 760, but have read several places that it is a good one.

I suppose claiming to not bother working up loads is not entirely correct, I work up loads that are most likely to have a broad application in several rifles of that chambering. All the usual safety caveats still apply, along with reasonable accuracy goals, and reliable function. It's just that when I find that sort of load, and it works in several rifles, I don't try to re-invent it from scratch.
When I get a new rifle I check chamber and throat. I use the Hornady headspace gauge ( head & shoulders) to compare headspace and their bullet comparator to check throat length. Or do a chamber cast if those methods aren't practical. Then, based on experience, if a rifle doesn't shoot my selected load ( with thoroughly tested case, bullet, primer, powder combination ) well, I pretty much know it has a bedding issue, or a nicked crown, or a loose scope or mount component, or a mysteriously bad barrel. I don't test a whole pile of loads to try to get it to shoot.
 
I've got some go-to loads for different calibers that just about always give the desired results. For instance 80 grains of H1000 in my old Norma brass, a 215M, and a decent 180 grain seated to the lands will usually get a .300 Wn cooking at longrange. I'm using the same everything for the 190 LR Accubond as well. I'll vary the COL from gun to gun at times, and some take a different competition shellholder for the right shoulder bump. Forgiving loads make it easier to experiment with different hunting bullets on the culls.

56 grains of H4350 is about all you have to know about 30-06s with 180s. Likewise 50.5 grains of Varget with 165 and 168s. I could switch that load with assorted bullets through 3 different rifles with casual ease. That's a handy thing when you've got a few hundred rounds stashed and you're going back with a different barrel. It made live animal bullet tests simpler too.

Is there a .270 that won't shoot with H4831 and 130s? Or a .223 that hates H335? Or you go to an F class match and the .233 and .308 guys are all using Varget?

I had a list of Cooper's accuracy test loads once. It was back when they were more short action and varmint focussed; but many of
loads were already old friends.
 
In many cases you can just load one cartridge per charge weight and go up one grain at a time. Shoot them all at the same target and go up until you get a ejector mark, hitch in the bolt lift or whatever it takes to convince you that you've already gone too far. Back off 2 grains; load 10 and shoot them at 300 or so. You might already have a load; but if you want to tweak it you can always work down. If you do the initial series over a chronograph you might find that the load is so slow that you have no interest and can save the trouble and bullets.

Guys will agonize over 1/8 inch at 100, then sight it 3" high because they know that 3" doesn't mean much. They hope that they are in good shape to blaze away at distances where wind drift is measured in feet.
 
For most of my rifles I keep it simple by picking a projectile I want to use, picking a suitable powder that I have in the locker then start around 50% book loading to the bullet manufacturer suggested COL (for a precision rifle I'll load close to the lands if the magazine allows) and work up slowly till I find the most accurate load. On small capacity cases I step up in 0.2 or 0.3gr increments and larger cases like 308 I go 0.3 or 0.4 gr steps and in large cases like 300 win or larger I'll usually go 0.5gr steps.
I'm kinda lucky that I have a range on my property so I don't have to build 50 testers then go shoot them all, I just make 3 rounds, go shoot them, make 3 more with the next step up in powder and so on till I see promise then go make some more to verify. Once I find a load that performs decently I'll try loads 0.1 loads on each side to see if it's better or worse aiming for the middle of the node for the most consistency with temp changes.
Once I find a decent load I may play with the COL but unless it's a precision rifle I don't really worry about it.
By loading to the bullet manufacturers suggested COL and not pushing velocities I keep it safe to load in other rifles of the same caliber because like the OP I buy and sell more than I probably should as a reloader.
It works well to find a good load for hunting or general plinking and if more accuracy is desired I'll repeat it with other powders or projectiles until I'm satisfied with the results.
If you get too carried away you just end up chasing that magic load forever and since I'm not a competitive shooter I don't need to do much more than that. I have found a few sub moa loads but those take a little more effort and I reserve that kind of development for rifles I feel can actually take advantage of it. No sense spending a bunch of time trying to develop a precision load for a Rem 700 hunting rifle but rifles like my Rem 700 5R 300win that are capable of 1/2 moa are worth the extra effort.
 
You guys keep using a term here which I am totally unfamiliar with. Can someone please explain it to me............"Buy and Sell" ......now I am infinitely familiar with the term BUY,(to the tune of in excess of 200 firearms)...... but what exactly is meant by the term "SELL"?????????
 
Ha! I can relate to that, but have recently trained myself to sell firearms that have nothing more to teach me. I have decided that my firearms hobby is about gaining experience, not possessions. So I have sold many firearms that are very very good at what they do, but did not have anything special to offer that several others could also do for me. I'm going through a medium bore phase right now, with four .375H&H rifles and three 9.3's to play with. I plan to whittle them down to half that number, not that anything is wrong with the others. The money can be re-inveted in new experiences. I don't have a light powerful bolt action stainless "mountain" rifle right now, nor a svelte artistic single shot German stalking rifle, or a 28 ga SXS grouse gun, ...
 
c-fbmi said:
You guys keep using a term here which I am totally unfamiliar with. Can someone please explain it to me............"Buy and Sell" ......now I am infinitely familiar with the term BUY,(to the tune of in excess of 200 firearms)...... but what exactly is meant by the term "SELL"?????????
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I agree 100% this sell word is totally foreign to me despite my wife’s objections and hints of another safe needed soon.
 
c-fbmi said:
You guys keep using a term here which I am totally unfamiliar with. Can someone please explain it to me............"Buy and Sell" ......now I am infinitely familiar with the term BUY,(to the tune of in excess of 200 firearms)...... but what exactly is meant by the term "SELL"?????????
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You BUY. He SELLS. Takes two to do a Buy-Sell.
 
...well I'm obsessed with getting the smallest group possible out of my rifles...but I don't buy and sell...so once a load is worked up I move on to other things...any of the rifles i use will generally vary between 3" or less than 1" at 100 yards given the standard load data range...i shoot coyotes from my porch at a 300 yards bait...that's the difference between a hit and a miss no thanks to my own inability to shoot, the later figuring more dominantly
 
Longwalker said:
I'm an incurable gun trader, and obsessive- compulsive reloader. I have always tried to come up with the ultimate load for each rifle, tweaking this and that, trying different bullets, powders, seating depths, etc etc. But then I sell that particular rifle and have a whole bunch of specialized ammo on hand. I tend to just shoot that ammo in the next rifle that comes along that can use it. I have come to the conclusion that specialized ammo is seldom necessary, and that with reasonable care and attention a good load in one rifle will almost never be unsafe in another firearm if staying within published maximums, and will usually shoot good in others too. If it were otherwise, factory loads would not be practical.
So now I want to load "good enough" ammo for all the various rifles that will possibly fire it. Any one else take that approach? Will I be voted out of the club?
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Regardless of what you may conclude today, tomorrow you will continue load development. Load development is very closely linked to hunting in more ways than one. The closest link between the two is "the journey". Putting to test load development for a period of several days is equivalent to several days in the field pursuing that trophy......don't miss out on that journey, the most important part of life's little treasures.
 
track, you're right of course. Sometimes I take the quick and easy way, sometimes the demands of a hunt mean very particular load development. It's always fun.
 
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