M10x...

[zZ_denis]

Wow. #condescending.

Of course I read your post, and by the way, nobody but you said the AK was minute of barn.

YES I have shot AK's with what I would consider match grade ammo - basically well made reloads. What of it? And "high power scope" - are you effing kidding? It's not a dragunov. I've used up to 6X from a bench, if you care. Many of us spend a good deal of time in the USA and actually do get to try these things out instead of reading on the interwebz.

You have not done the things you claim this platform can do. That's all I need to know. You said it yourself: "Neither have I".

When someone claims something ridiculous, as you have, then the burden of proof is on that person, not the person calling out your BS-ery. That is how fact checking works.

I don't take umbrage with most of your postings, but telling everyone the AK is as inherently accurate as a DI system betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of physics, mechanical engineering and firearms mechanics.

But by all means, dig yourself deeper...

So you're saying you read my post, and chose to deliberately ignore the main point I was trying to make and instead nitpick at a single statement that you disagree with? Way to go!

Well, I don't do that, so for the sake of a meaningful argument i'll address all your points in order:

- Re "minute of barn". If you have completely ignored the context (as you did with the whole accuracy argument), the only time I used the term was to give an example of exaggeration that often accompanies the AR VS AK arguments on the internet. You have heard this term before, haven't you? Go google "minute of barn" and see what comes up. Just about every result will be AK-related. But regardless, Tiriaq made a post that basically implied that (even though it was worded slightly different).

- AK's with match ammo... Would you mind sharing the details on those well made reloads that you shot? As well as the rifle used, setup and the accuracy results? Im genuinely curious, considering that match grade AK ammo DOES NOT EXIST. There is no off-the-shelf match ammo in x39 that can be bought. The closest thing would probably be 7.62x39 Lapua that is not match grade by ANY MEANS. It's just good quality, mil-spec ammo made for the FDF by a company that happens to be known for match grade ammo in other calibers. Same goes for handloads. Match grade components are simply not made in that caliber. There is mil-spec Lapua brass that is decent, but not match grade. As for bullets, the situation is even worse. There are no bullets available for that caliber that are purpose-made for precision shooting. Period. So, please, do share the details for those rounds that YOU would consider "match grade". And yes, you need match grade ammo, and a setup that would completely eliminate shooter error to judge inherent accuracy of a gun.

- Good on you for traveling to USA every once in a while to blast some rounds from a beat up rental AK. Lucky me, I have a bunch of non-restricted AK's that I shoot regularly here in Canada. As for mil-spec select fire rifles, I'm not gonna go into all the details on my experience with the them, but I'll just say that its FAR more extensive than a few range trips to US.

-As far as calling out the BS-ery, when someone makes a ridiculous statement, I agree 100%. That's exactly what I did in my very first post when Tiriaq made a statement implying that AK's cant hit anything at extended ranges. That is simply not the case, so I called it out.

-FYI, inherent accuracy of a semi rifle has little to do with the what gas system it uses. It's much more dependant on quality and tolerances of parts used. HK PSG-1 uses a roller-locked delayed blowback system (which is far more crude than AK's long stroke piston), yet it's one of the most accurate semi's made..

But either way, this is getting way off topic. I'll reiterate this for last (3rd time now): A slight edge in accuracy for assault rifle makes ZERO difference on the battlefield, so this whole accuracy argument is irrelevant and should not be used when comparing assault rifles.

Now to try and get slightly back on-topic, there is another BS claim that I wanted to point out: 45 vs 80 parts used on M10X VS AK. To come up with "80 unique" AK parts, you would need to count rivets, barrel pins and a bunch of other crap that is never intended to be removed by the user. Another good example of manipulating the truth to suit an agenda..

 

[Kingjenky]

Two questions for you zz.....
How many parts are there in an AK?
What does it take or what constitutes “match grade ammo”?

 

[r34skyline]

I could care less about the AK vs AR argument. Wasn't that crap settled by Rambo in like 1985?!?!

What I don't get is people ragging on the 2K price of the M10X. We've all recently seen what $1100 buys you from a country with low labour costs - an unacceptably high rate of out-of-spec Trunion and Buttstock rivetting, resulting in crooked rifles along with some genuinely bent Receivers and hand-ground Bolts! Yes, a CZ 858 can be had for $1400 "new", but most of the parts aside from the Receiver and extended Canadian Barrel are surplus Czech military parts which cost next to nothing. You can cannot compare a rifle built on surplus parts with the cost of manufacturing a entirely new rifle in the USA. For what it is and the machining required, I personally think that $2K on the Canadian market is quite reasonable. I really don't care what they sell for in the US as that is a very different market, awash in $600 AK rifles that the M10X must try to compete against. I also could care less that Wanstall's original pre-sale price was only $1450, given that the price was for vapour rifles that Wanstalls couldn't deliver.

The $2K price is what the Canadian market will likely bear with decent (if not strong) sales. When I looked into doing a 3rd Party Import of a US 16.1" barrelled (restricted) M10X the savings over the Canadian MSRP were negligible once the currency conversion, brokerage fee, shipping, GST and so forth were taken into account. Take the CZ 858 out of the equation with its surplus parts and you aren't left with many 7.62x39mm alternatives on the Canadian market at or below the $2K price-point besides the SKS. Especially non-restricted rifles.

Just my $.02 on the M10X price. If you can't afford it or don't want to pay it? Fine, just move along to something more to your liking without polluting this thread with childish trolling. There is plenty enough of that in the other M10X threads. Just saying....

Actually you are still left to deal with the the csa and kodiak variants of the cz. I agree. 1400 for the cz now is ridiculous I got mine pre ban scare at 699. And the other used at 550. The current prices are a bit silly. I also stand with you that paying 1100 for that lump of crap t81 is hysterical. But where you are wrong is the justification of the silly pricing of the m10x. At 1450 to 1500 that was kn line with us prices. Then it magically jumped 500 for... no reason. And like I said us getting gouged directly by m+m speaks to some shady business practices and a company that doesn't seem to give a #### about us.

As I said before it's a shame I genuinely wanted to give it a go. But with the pricing debacle combined with the manufacturer being dickbags I'll pass.

 

[GuiltySpark]

Most of the time ARs suck compared to AKs, big time-many Western contractors in Middle East, after propaganda BS is washed out, use AK and forget about AR

I don't want to ruin the image of hardcore "contractors" kicking ass all over the place but the majority of contractors aren't as badass as you think. Lots are soldiers who release from the military under poor performance/attitude, come from non-combat trades with little to no training OR are civilians off the street and essentially glorified security guards.


Say what you want about the 10X it does look pretty nice. I like how you can swap the cocking handle from the right side to left. Sure seems like a better investment than that Type 81 fiasco.

 

[medvedqc]

Sako and Norma did or still do very good accurate ammo for the AK family ....

 

[BlackVoid]

DI guns are inherently more accurate than piston ones.

here is a group with 55gr federal plinking ammo with DD V11 S2W 18", 20 rounds group 1.5 MOA (1.67" at 100m).
(The left corner hit is from the target below this one shooting standing.)

View attachment 137983

 

[Claven2]

Two questions for you zz.....
How many parts are there in an AK?
What does it take or what constitutes “match grade ammo”?

Don't bother feeding the troll. I've given up. Zz's AKs, which he likely fired in call of duty, will likely put lead on the moon and slay grizzlies just by cycling the action.

And for the record, my parents are Americans and live in Fla. I don't rent AKs, beat up or otherwise.

 

[Claven2]

Actually you are still left to deal with the the csa and kodiak variants of the cz. I agree. 1400 for the cz now is ridiculous I got mine pre ban scare at 699. And the other used at 550. The current prices are a bit silly. I also stand with you that paying 1100 for that lump of crap t81 is hysterical. But where you are wrong is the justification of the silly pricing of the m10x. At 1450 to 1500 that was kn line with us prices. Then it magically jumped 500 for... no reason. And like I said us getting gouged directly by m+m speaks to some shady business practices and a company that doesn't seem to give a #### about us.

As I said before it's a shame I genuinely wanted to give it a go. But with the pricing debacle combined with the manufacturer being dickbags I'll pass.

Price and value are different thing. I mean, does anyone think a stamped receiver Valmet m78 in 7.62x39 should sell for $12k?

I'm not sure it's worth $1100, but I really like my t81. Some slwere made crooked, but most were ok and the good ones are great little guns in a different market niche than the m10x.

 

[cr5]

- Good on you for traveling to USA every once in a while to blast some rounds from a beat up rental AK. Lucky me, I have a bunch of non-restricted AK's that I shoot regularly here in Canada. As for mil-spec select fire rifles, I'm not gonna go into all the details on my experience with the them, but I'll just say that its FAR more extensive than a few range trips to US.

Bla bla bla...WTF?
Ok, what non restricted AK's? Now I know your full of it or your taking a pretty wide view of what constitutes an AK. Could you please share with us what a non restricted AK is in Canada?
Thanks, much appreciated.

DI guns are inherently more accurate than piston ones.

here is a group with 55gr federal plinking ammo with DD V11 S2W 18", 20 rounds group 1.5 MOA (1.67" at 100m).
(The left corner hit is from the target below this one shooting standing.)

To be fair, in my opinion if we are talking about accuracy I'm going to tell you that it has more to do with the quality of the barrel and ammunition than it has to do with the gas system.
I've owned two piston driven HK SL8's that would shoot 1 moa or better with match grade ammo, my piston driven ACR will shoot sub moa with my stainless match grade barrel and my handloads, and my PWS piston driven 12 in AR would shoot 1 moa or better with match ammo. I've also had DI AR's that would shoot sub moa with high quality barrels and ammo and others equipped with cheaper barrels that would not shoot sub moa no matter what ammo you fed them.
If we're just talking about battle rifles then who cares? But, if we're talking about civilian rifles then we expect more and if accuracy is important you want a rifle with readily available aftermarket barrels because the factory rarely puts a quality barrel in a civilian version battle type rifle.
Some designs are inherently more accurate than others but those still need a quality barrel and ammunition to truly perform.

 

[PECHENEG]

for those who think that Kolashnikov Concern still fits the bolt and bolt carriers individually for each rifle:

not to hijack the topic, but just to prove to some individuals, that Russian ain't vodka+balalaika+bears on the street and bolts fit by hand-you've seen to much of western propaganda, open your eyes

 

[cr5]

Has anyone figured out what peekachu is trying to contribute to this thread? Just trolling for a fight or is there a point to all this AK rules the world nattering instead of talking about the rifle in the title of the thread?

 

[bfiles]

Has anyone figured out what peekachu is trying to contribute to this thread? Just trolling for a fight or is there a point to all this AK rules the world nattering instead of talking about the rifle in the title of the thread?

LOL. Seems he oozes knowledge at every chance he gets LMAO

I'm positive he will be in pink soon

 

[cr5]

LOL. Seems he oozes knowledge at every chance he gets LMAO

I'm positive he will be in pink soon

Lol, he put me on ignore, breaks my heart.

 

[zZ_denis]

Sako and Norma did or still do very good accurate ammo for the AK family ....

They very well might have, but you cant buy buy it. Sako x39 ammo is not imported to North America. Norma - I don't believe they even make it anymore.

Two questions for you zz.....
How many parts are there in an AK?
What does it take or what constitutes “match grade ammo”?

You cant really say how many parts there are in an AK because that number will vary greatly from one variant to another. It also makes a huge difference what you count as separate parts. For example: The standard fixed wood stock can have as many as 17 separate parts + cleaning kit. So up 23-24 parts total. OR one could count the stock assembly as 1 part. Stamped bare receiver (with no internals) from the same (wood stock) rifle is made up from about 20 separate parts, if you count the rivets. But none of those 20 parts are removable by the user. So it should really be counted as 1 part.
You can easily see how one can inflate the total number of parts.. There are more examples I could give you

As for what constitutes "match grade ammo", I don't think there is a very clear definition (i.e. typical group size). I would personally go by how it's marketed/sold. If it's sold as "match grade", then its probably accurate/consistent enough. There might be some exceptions to this, of course. But NO 7.62x39 ammo on the market is being marketed as "match grade", while there are tons .223 ammo that is.

Bla bla bla...WTF?
Ok, what non restricted AK's? Now I know your full of it or your taking a pretty wide view of what constitutes an AK. Could you please share with us what a non restricted AK is in Canada?
Thanks, much appreciated.

Valmet Hunter and M78. You're welcome.

Don't bother feeding the troll. I've given up. Zz's AKs, which he likely fired in call of duty, will likely put lead on the moon and slay grizzlies just by cycling the action.

And for the record, my parents are Americans and live in Fla. I don't rent AKs, beat up or otherwise.

You already demonstrated a lack of reading comprehension in this thread, taking things way out of context, inability to have a meaningful argument and ignoring logical statements and facts... The only things left to do were to call someone a troll and make a reference to a video game when retreating from an argument that you clearly lost . You had me worried there for a second, but here you are. Well done, sir!
Hey, there is still hope for you. Maybe after another 16 thousand posts on the internet you'll actually learn to have a proper discussion. But I'm not gonna hold my breath..

 

[cr5]

They very well might have, but you cant buy buy it. Sako x39 ammo is not imported to North America. Norma - I don't believe they even make it anymore.



You cant really say how many parts there are in an AK because that number will vary greatly from one variant to another. It also makes a huge difference what you count as separate parts. For example: The standard fixed wood stock can have as many as 17 separate parts + cleaning kit. So up 23-24 parts total. OR one could count the stock assembly as 1 part. Stamped bare receiver (with no internals) from the same (wood stock) rifle is made up from about 20 separate parts, if you count the rivets. But none of those 20 parts are removable by the user. So it should really be counted as 1 part.
You can easily see how one can inflate the total number of parts.. There are more examples I could give you

As for what constitutes "match grade ammo", I don't think there is a very clear definition (i.e. typical group size). I would personally go by how it's marketed/sold. If it's sold as "match grade", then its probably accurate/consistent enough. There might be some exceptions to this, of course. But NO 7.62x39 ammo on the market is being marketed as "match grade", while there are tons .223 ammo that is.



You already demonstrated a lack of reading comprehension in this thread, taking things way out of context, inability to have a meaningful argument and ignoring logical statements and facts... The only things left to do were to call someone a troll and make a reference to a video game when retreating from an argument that you clearly lost . You had me worried there for a second, but here you are. Well done, sir!
Hey, there is still hope for you. Maybe after another 16 thousand posts on the internet you'll actually learn to have a proper discussion. But I'm not gonna hold my breath..

Hey!!!
What about me?
What's a non restricted AK?

 

[bfiles]

Lol, he put me on ignore, breaks my heart.

LOL. It's ok, I just got on his now too.

 

[Horilka]

Truth be told ar15 should be compared with ak74, not with 47 because there were no 7.62x39 equivalent in US. And definitely should not be compared with those Frankenstein builds available in USA. Having said that, both AKs and ARs have absolutely stupid design features and great engineering ideas. Both fulfilled their countries requirements and both systems work fine when it matters.

P.s. Piston vs DI for practical purpose has nothing to do with accuracy. Again both systems have cons and pros, but it doesn't matter for accuracy. And BTW ar15 is not true DI, I would refer to Stoner own words, ″This invention is a true expanding gas system instead of the conventional impinging gas system.″ It's a combination system with piston integrated into bolt carrier, basically piston system without oprod.

M10x has some cool ideas too, with some stupid things as well. Both sides were probably dictated by manufacturing limitations. I wish something like this had come from true military design and not from small company with questionable ethic and business practises.

 

[zZ_denis]

Hey!!!
What about me?
What's a non restricted AK?

I did edit in the reply to you about 20 seconds after making that post (I didn't include it originally as your question wasn't there when I started typing it), but you managed to quote me during those 20 seconds, lol.

 

[cr5]

Truth be told ar15 should be compared with ak74, not with 47 because there were no 7.62x39 equivalent in US. And definitely should not be compared with those Frankenstein builds available in USA. Having said that, both AKs and ARs have absolutely stupid design features and great engineering ideas. Both fulfilled their countries requirements and both systems work fine when it matters.

P.s. Piston vs DI for practical purpose has nothing to do with accuracy. Again both systems have cons and pros, but it doesn't matter for accuracy. And BTW ar15 is not true DI, I would refer to Stoner own words, ″This invention is a true expanding gas system instead of the conventional impinging gas system.″ It's a combination system with piston integrated into bolt carrier, basically piston system without oprod.

M10x has some cool ideas too, with lot of stupid things as well. Both sides were probably dictated by manufacturing limitations. I wish something like this had come from true military design and not from small company with questionable ethic and business practises.

Yup, more than one way to skin a cat. Both work when called upon and have both proven their merit in combat.

 

[cr5]

I did edit in the reply to you about 20 seconds after making that post (I didn't include it originally as your question wasn't there when I started typing it), but you managed to quote me during those 20 seconds, lol.

I must be too drunk to figure it out, can you please list these non restricted AK's you speak of?
Been drinking yummy whiskey tonight. The wife is very impressed