223 vs 30WCF for hunting

I have a suspicion that with a good bullet the 223 and 30WCF are very close in performance on deer sized animals. Pure speculation on my part though.
 
MiG25 said:
I have a suspicion that with a good bullet the 223 and 30WCF are very close in performance on deer sized animals. Pure speculation on my part though.
Click to expand...

With modern bullets like the TTSX they are both more than adequate, it's a stupid debate to engage in.
 
Rocket Surgery said:
For sure there is. Real hunting is in BC, and hunting is when you sit in a blind with a scoped rifle.
Click to expand...

I see alot of keyboard warrior on the internet my friend
Where i hunt in quebec the minimum is .243 for big game and some outfitter push this to 270
I dont think a 223 is enought to drop a 200+lbs buck cleanly whit vital shot
Like a .30cal 170gn will do
 
BigUglyMan said:
A comparison between a stoutly constructed monometal bullet and a highly frangible one isn't a fair one. You could run 45 caliber pistol bullets out of a 460 Weatherby and all you would get it a loud noise and an ghastly flesh would. Would you try to argue that the 460 Weatherby is incapable of killing medium-sized game? Or would you say that the bullet choice was woefully inadequate? The other extreme applies perfectly as well. A 223 with a 50gr Barnes Varmint Grenade is a dreadfully bad combination for anything bigger than foxes but that does not mean that the 223 is incapable of cleanly harvesting medium-sized game. The truth lies in the middle. Under some circumstances the 223 is a fine deer round. In my opinion, that would be in the forests of the West Coast, Washington and Oregon shooting blacktails. In fact, I think it would be a dandy little deer rifle on Haida Gwaii. Would I want it on the open prairies of Saskatchewan and Alberta for big Mulie bucks in November? Wouldn't be my first choice by a wide margin.



Velocity can play a part in quick kills, but a complete understanding of the mechanics of death are required. Death is caused by exsanguination (bleeding out) or CNS disruption. Given all the givens, the more damage you can do to the major components of the vascular system, the faster an animal will bleed out. So all things being equal, a bullet that does massive damage to the heart and aorta will cause lethal blood loss faster. High velocity tends to cause more dramatic expansion as compared to a similar bullet at a lower velocity. More dramatic expansion can (assuming adequate penetration) cause more damage to the vital organs which causes faster blood loss.

As it relates to disruption of the CNS, velocity plays only a peripheral role. Increased velocity flattens the trajectory which results in easier hits to the relatively small targets that make up the CNS (brain and spine forward of the point of the shoulder). All the bullet needs to do is penetrate to the brain or spinal column and the result is nearly instantaneous death. But it doesn't need to be going fast to achieve this. You could kill a deer just as quickly by driving a knitting needle into it's brain using your bare hands (though that would raise some disturbing questions about a person's state of mind). Velocity only aids in disruption of the CNS when you are using a frangible bullet and miss the target but a lucky piece of shrapnel severs the spinal column. This is not skill or a benefit of any aspect of the system, it's just dumb luck that cannot be relied upon or given any weight in the argument.

So to compare apples to apples, if your GF had been using a 139gr GMX I don't believe that you would have been able to tell a bit of difference between her deer and that of your daughter, given ideal shot placement which severs the spinal column. Nor does a high impact velocity guarantee better results. In the end, it's all about using a properly constructed bullet and putting the said bullet in the proper place with enough retained energy to ensure adequate penetration of the vitals.

Sounds so easy when you boil off all the extraneous broth!
Click to expand...


Having killed a 4 point whitetail with a spyderco tenacious knife I can agree a steel blade to the brain kills faster than stabs to the neck. That resulted in a shower of blood and a dislocated left shoulder.
 
While neither the .223 or .30-30 are my first choices for deer I have and will kill whitetails with both. The two in my experience perform very similarly when deer appropriate bullets are driven into the heart and or lungs.
 
Hitzy said:
Should have specified I'm in Quebec...my bad.
Anyway...243Win with 100gr pills, low recoil, plenty of hammer and range for deer, lightest I'd personally go on the WT around here, they get big enough.
I don't think buying a $1000 deer rifle with the justification of nickel and dime ammo is the best approach.
Click to expand...

I buy $200 rifles and put in high end bullets :)

I would not personally use a .223 rifle for deer but there are people who do it and it can be effective under specific situations, just like every other rifle, but the room for error is a lot less.

The 30-30 will always be a wonderful deer rifle, no matter what the new cartridge is that people are pushing.
 
A better argument then head stamps is bet placement. Where I hunt deer in swo property lines are close. Woods are small and I don't partake in trespassing and don't cross land I don't have permission to be on. I hunt in a muzzleloader only area. I settled on platinum power belts and shoulder shots. Every deer has dropped on the spot except the one I decided to be smart and shoot him on the high ground instead of letting him walk right to me in the lower part of the land. I shot him directly in the chest. Thru the heart and the bullet was found in the last 1/2" of his ass cheek. He ran 110 yards down hill and across the Creek. What a fun time dragging him up it was. Lung shot deer run even with the 50 Cal hole thru their chests. Often they can run on to others properties. If we could use center fires I'd still shoot for the shoulder. To do break the shoulders one would need a hard or heavy bullet. Can the 223 throw a hard heavy bullet capable of breaking both shoulders...maybe if it was twisted fast enough. If a trophy buck walked out and only offered a lung shot would that same bullet drop him on the property he was on? I have confidence in the 30 cal 170 gr flat nose to do both. I lack the confidence in a 22 center fire. If it were snow covered ground and seemingly boundless land like some get to hunt on I may think different and just track the animal a Lil further

When I have hunted deer with center fires my 25/06 proved capable with chest shots and only one deer managed to wobble a short distance after being hit low and to the rear of the rib cage. It was clear he wasn't long for this world.
Point is there are better cartridges for deer and bullets designed for each type of hunting. Choose a combination that covers how you hunt an one that will work on the worst day not just when everything goes right

PS. How does one pronounce Haida Gwaii?
 
MiG25 said:
I have a suspicion that with a good bullet the 223 and 30WCF are very close in performance on deer sized animals. Pure speculation on my part though.
Click to expand...

This thread is 30-30 vs .223 for deer, (and not what's your favorite deer cartridge) so this is a good point to consider! :)

When Todbartell and I set off on the epic "Flattops and Fireballs" hunt, we decided to do some impromptu testing between the .22 Fireball (smaller than a .223) and the 30-30. We shot blocks of wood and compared wound channels. Like I said, it was impromptu so not super scientific, but told us what we needed to know.

The .221 with the TSX bullet and the 30-30 load with a FP bullet penetrated about the same and made similar "wound" channels. And of course when Bartell shot the deer with the .221, the little bullet made soup out of the lungs.

Since then, I've seen wound channels from .223's and TTSX bullets on deer and bears that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and 30-06 or 7RM or whatever. The .223's will work very well with the correct bullet.
 
Slamfire said:
...The fastest killing chest shot with the .30-30, using either factory ammunition or hand loads is one that strikes slightly forwards of the front leg, at or close to the intersection of the scapula and humerus bones. A shot in this area destroys the autonomous plexus, a major nerve center of the body, causing instant death, shot after shot.
Click to expand...

hoytcanon said:
That is ridiculous...
Click to expand...

Come now, hoyt; where better to obtain authoritative data on the quintessential American woods deer cartridge than from a couple of ballistics experts based in the mountains of New Zealand? If these guys don't know...who does?

Personally, I've always eschewed the heart/lung shot in favour of the autonomous plexus shot, but that's just me...
 
jjohnwm said:
Personally, I've always eschewed the heart/lung shot in favour of the autonomous plexus shot, but that's just me...
Click to expand...

I suppose it does pre-tenderize the brisket... if you are really good, with three quick follow-ups, you could shave the brisket too... ;)
 
brybenn said:
Having killed a 4 point whitetail with a spyderco tenacious knife I can agree a steel blade to the brain kills faster than stabs to the neck. That resulted in a shower of blood and a dislocated left shoulder.
Click to expand...

Now this is a story that needs to be told! Perhaps a thread on "is a 4 inch folder, enough knife, for medium sized game?" db
 
I lived in Nunavut for 10 years. After seeing the Inuit use 22-250's and 223's for seals and caribou I gave it a whirl. Was also looking for a soft recoiling rifle for my wife. In wide open Tundra with the ability to pick shots both calibers worked well. The 223 was best at under 150 yards. past this the speed necessary for sufficient energy starts to get pretty minimal. Bullets designed for deer hunting penetrated better but never saw the surface wounding with regular lead and copper bullets either. I also picked up a 30-30 in a Stevens 325B. The 30-30 penetrated much better with equal bullets and gave better 2nd half wounding channels though the first half was similar. In my experience the 30-30 is a more reliable performer. Here is a bunch of bullets from 125 to 170 grains from the 30-30 around a 53TSX and a 60 grain partition. You can see why the 2nd half wound channels of the 30-30 where bigger. Once you lose the quick kinetic transfer of the 223 which relies on speed you have a pretty small projectile penetrating. Maybe that's why it didn't seem to matter too much what type of bullets you use in a 223..other than too frangible bullets like the V-Max bullets all the lead and copper bullets of 55grains and heavier act in a similar way when it comes to killing power. Please discout the one bullet that lost it's core. That's a 358 225 grain Sierra that is a different story all together. At 30-30 velocities the 30 caliber bullets tend to behave themselves when it comes to sticking together. In fact the 30-30 will out penetrate the magnum calibers unless you switch to fancy bullets.

30-30top.jpg
 
So, wait...apparently, what you are saying here is that a deer bullet...fired out of a deer cartridge...does a better job on deer-sized (and larger) animals than a ground squirrel bullet fired from a ground squirrel cartridge? Hmmm...amazing! The .223's seem to work well enough...at minimal distances...under absolutely perfect conditions...when utilized by subsistence hunters who, I would guess, don't give even a passing thought to closed seasons or bag limits. They have the option of hunting whenever they need or want to. They don't need to take their game within the time constraints imposed by a short open season, and they don't suffer under any self-imposed restrictions regarding the need for a "trophy".

I am also going to make another assumption here: they choose the .223 or .22-250 or, apparently, the .22Hornet simply because these rounds are inexpensive, no? I have worked on a couple of reserves in northern Manitoba, and the cartridge of choice seemed to be the 7.62x39, again apparently due to its price.

So...we have a bunch of CGN members...gun nuts...who, for the most part, need to take their deer within a relatively short legally-imposed window of time. Many of us also want that trophy deer, passing up chances at smaller, easier, more-perfectly-presented targets. We agonize over ballistic coefficients and velocities and bullet construction and terminal performance and a host of other details...and yet we use the fact that northern subsistence hunters utilize the .22cal cartridge for their hunting as an argument that it's a good choice for the job.

Makes sense to me...:confused:
 
I once passed a guy who was riding a Vespa along the Banff/Jasper highway in September during a snow squall. The fact that he was doing it did not tempt me one bit to try it myself.

Because it CAN be done is no argument that it SHOULD be.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom