what does a 6.5 creedmore do that a 6.5 x 55 doesn't?

Ok so what are real world velocities for the three?
Ballistic AE
6.5x55 140 SST Superformance = 2735

6.5 CM 140 ELD Match = 2710

260 Rem 140 game king = 2700
140 match king = 2750

I could not find the same loads across the board.
 
Marketing hype alone does not equal success. Otherwise we would all be using cartridges like the RUMs, WSSMs and whatever new cartridge WBY is pimping. :)

There have been plenty of new cartridges introduced in the last 20 years- all with lots of marketing hype- but only a handful remained successful. The 300 WSM, 375 Ruger, 17 HMR and 6.5 CM are among the successful ones.

Takes a lot more than marketing to produce a success.
 
Gatehouse said:
Marketing hype alone does not equal success. Otherwise we would all be using cartridges like the RUMs, WSSMs and whatever new cartridge WBY is pimping. :)

There have been plenty of new cartridges introduced in the last 20 years- all with lots of marketing hype- but only a handful remained successful. The 300 WSM, 375 Ruger, 17 HMR and 6.5 CM are among the successful ones.

Takes a lot more than marketing to produce a success.
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A lot more of what, exactly? I agree that explaining marketing success (or failure) is not easy at times, but what is your point as far as this thread is concerned? Are you suggesting that your list of "successful" ones are all somehow superior to all those who failed, or to all those who are almost identical that already existed? I don't believe any such argument can be made without splitting tiny little hairs and talking about paper differences that matter not one bit in real life.
 
rral22 said:
A lot more of what, exactly? I agree that explaining marketing success (or failure) is not easy at times, but what is your point as far as this thread is concerned? Are you suggesting that your list of "successful" ones are all somehow superior to all those who failed, or to all those who are almost identical that already existed? I don't believe any such argument can be made without splitting tiny little hairs and talking about paper differences that matter not one bit in real life.
Click to expand...

Case in point, the tipping point for popularity can be as simple as one (paid) high profile personality to sell-out to promote the cartridge or platform... but in the long term perspective, if the cartridge doesn't perform it won't stick around... but there are lots of good cartridges that never became commercial successes.

I have said it several times in this thread, but here it is again; I think the 6.5 CM is a very good cartridge design... but, just as with the OP, it just does not do anything for me over the 6.5x55 given my uses and circumstances.
 
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rral22 said:
A lot more of what, exactly? I agree that explaining marketing success (or failure) is not easy at times, but what is your point as far as this thread is concerned?
Click to expand...

The point is simple as far as this thread goes- People that credit the popularity of the CM to marketing hype lack any understanding of why some cartridges succeed and some fail. They all are introduced with marketing hype and all make the rounds of the various gun writers and celebrity hunters and shooters. Yet there are way more good cartridges that fail than poor cartridges that succeed, especially in this era.

Are you suggesting that your list of "successful" ones are all somehow superior to all those who failed, or to all those who are almost identical that already existed? I don't believe any such argument can be made without splitting tiny little hairs and talking about paper differences that matter not one bit in real life.
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If there is any type of "formula" that can be applied to a successful cartridge introduction, I think it would include a few factors, chief among them giving the people what they want, even if they don't know they want it before it was introduced. Other factors include making them unique to other cartridges in the same performance range, a good balance of performance and features and certainly timing plays a big part in it. The 300WSM has flourished while other 300 short mags have floundered, because the others came late to the party. The 375 Ruger is incredibly popular because it's such a well balanced cartridge compared to any other 375 offering. The 17 HMR- well, who knew they wanted a fast little 17 rimfire until it came out? But they did!

The 6.5 CM has appealing case design features that people want, proven performance range and was introduced at a time when PRS was gaining in popularity.

If the situation was reversed- the 6.5 CM and 260 had been around for years and the 6.5x55 was introduced today, nobody would look at the x55, no matter how much it was hyped

So again- the point is that those that think a cartridge can become successful just because of marketing hype don't know schit. :)
 
prevost12 said:
You are hilarious. Call any company that makes rifles, ammo, or reloading equipment and ask them what the best selling .264 cartridge is. I bet they don’t tell you 6.5x55 lol.

Just to hit this one more time because you don’t seem to get it. The differences are not trivial, one is better. And that’s why it’s more popular. If you want to shoot game at 300 yards and in and handload, it makes no difference. But there is more to the shooting world than that.

Want a semi auto? Creedmoor
Want a rifle that fits in chassis systems and takes standard AICS mags? Creedmoor
Better rifle selection? Creedmoor
Better ammo selection? Creedmoor

I have thousands of rounds through both, the Creedmoor is better because it fits in a short action. Period. More versatile and can to used in a host of actions and designs that the swed cannot. Check out any Fclass or PRS leagues. Everyone is using 6 and 6.5 CM for a reason. If the 6.5x55 had a competitive edge, people would use that.
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I think you hit the nail on the head with the "hunting to 300 yards" comment.

This is the Hunting Guns forum, so it stands to reason that most would be looking at the discussion with general hunting in mind using bolt actions, most of which takes place at ranges under 300 yards. Within these parameters, the question may as well be "what does a 6.5x55/CM/260/708/308/270/7x57etc do differently than a 6.5x55/CM/260/708/308/270/7x57etc?" and the answer is of course "they will all kill your game about the same"

So pick whatever rifle you like, chambered in whatever interests you, and go hunting. But other things may be a consideration if you are interested in other aspects of shooting.
 
Gatehouse said:
If there is any type of "formula" that can be applied to a successful cartridge introduction, I think it would include a few factors, chief among them giving the people what they want, even if they don't know they want it before it was introduced.
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l think you'll find that getting people to buy something they don't even know they want, is, in fact, the definition of good marketing. Fanboys are always the easiest victims of marketing.

;)
 
rral22 said:
l think you'll find that getting people to buy something they don't even know they want, is, in fact, the definition of good marketing. Fanboys are always the easiest victims of marketing.

;)
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Fan boys being the entire sport of PRS? Hundreds of highly educated shooters, some of which were formerly experts in the military.

You’re right, you must know better. You and the other hunters are clearly the authority on ballistic efficiency
 
rral22 said:
l think you'll find that getting people to buy something they don't even know they want, is, in fact, the definition of good marketing. Fanboys are always the easiest victims of marketing.

;)
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Just the opposite, actually. Nobody knew they wanted a fax machine, a cell phone, an automobile until it was offered to them and they realized that someone had designed something that made sense to them.

But you missed the actual important part of the sentence - I think it would include a few factors, chief among them giving the people what they want

Once again, marketing hype alone won't make a cartridge successful.
 
Back when I was a golf fanatic, I thought nothing of spending $500 on a new driver. Didn't make me a better golfer, practice and working at the sport did. If someone would have criticized that club, given what i had invested i would defend it as well.

Back to the OP. He's talking about 125 and 140 partitions. Doubt he was worried about a extra .10" on a tactical shooting sport with those projectile. It's a great hunting projectile in the hunting forum.

We could just as easily rename the thread what does the 6 dasher do better than the 243 win?

It's reinventing the wheel. Convincing mice they will enjoy the latest greatest mouse trap more.
 
Gatehouse said:
Just the opposite, actually. Nobody knew they wanted a fax machine, a cell phone, an automobile until it was offered to them and they realized that someone had designed something that made sense to them.

But you missed the actual important part of the sentence - I think it would include a few factors, chief among them giving the people what they want

Once again, marketing hype alone won't make a cartridge successful.
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Ok so NEW (but not really as we already have 6.5x55 and 260Rem that duplicate it's accuracy and best it's speed) is really what you are getting at. Because it's NEW fanboys that want new stuff all the time buy into the marketing hype but skip all the research parts lol. How often has it been said in this thread alone "PRS guys use it so it's great". What if PRS guys LOSE constantly to other cartridges, still great?
NEW to me would be an actual NEW proprietary cartridge (like 6.5x47) not a wildcat based on a common cartridge case and making it popular.
Having access to 1000m private range, I have no doubt that it's not a great 1000m target round compared to the faster 6mm's and 7mm's. The 6.5PRC looks better for that, and with heavy 150-170 match bullets that are coming out will be a real winner.
What would really be neat is a short 6.5 based on the 284 case with a 40degree shoulder and 1/7 twist. Probably has been done already though lol.
 
I think it's going to steal market share away from the .243 win buyers. It does what the .243 was meant to do. Target/varmint/deer but with more authority. 243 future could be in for some serious hurting.
 
Gives people on the internet something new to argue about.

Otherwise we have the timeless debate

270 or 280

308 or 30-06

7-08 or 7x57

243 or 6mm

at least during this argument we have some quotable lines

"Why yes I have. And I have no clue."
 
Hitzy said:
Ok so NEW (but not really as we already have 6.5x55 and 260Rem that duplicate it's accuracy and best it's speed) is really what you are getting at. Because it's NEW fanboys that want new stuff all the time buy into the marketing hype but skip all the research parts lol. How often has it been said in this thread alone "PRS guys use it so it's great". What if PRS guys LOSE constantly to other cartridges, still great?
NEW to me would be an actual NEW proprietary cartridge (like 6.5x47) not a wildcat based on a common cartridge case and making it popular.
Having access to 1000m private range, I have no doubt that it's not a great 1000m target round compared to the faster 6mm's and 7mm's. The 6.5PRC looks better for that, and with heavy 150-170 match bullets that are coming out will be a real winner.
What would really be neat is a short 6.5 based on the 284 case with a 40degree shoulder and 1/7 twist. Probably has been done already though lol.
Click to expand...

"New" isn't a guarantee of success.

There are not enough "fanboys" that make choices on marketing alone to make a cartridge successful. Success will only come if the cartridge has features that make it appealing to many. The CM seems to be doing just that.
 
Gatehouse said:
"New" isn't a guarantee of success.

There are not enough "fanboys" that make choices on marketing alone to make a cartridge successful. Success will only come if the cartridge has features that make it appealing to many. The CM seems to be doing just that.
Click to expand...

So it's experienced hunters and target shooters buying all the "race to the bottom" Savage Axis, 770's etc? Not newbs to the sport?
 
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Hitzy said:
Give the 25 a fast twist and 150-170 vld's and the 6.5's are all back on the shelf...
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A 150-170gr VLD in .257?! What are you smoking... I think this is the point in the conversation where I just need to stop clicking this thread... this discussion is obviously going nowhere. I don’t know why companies like Berger and Hornady continue to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars of ballistics research. They should just hire you instead to design those awesome 150-170 gr 25 cal bullets lol
 
prevost12 said:
A 150-170gr VLD in .257?! What are you smoking... I think this is the point in the conversation where I just need to stop clicking this thread... this discussion is obviously going nowhere. I don’t know why companies like Berger and Hornady continue to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars of ballistics research. They should just hire you instead to design those awesome 150-170 gr 25 cal bullets lol
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You probably aren't aware they already make 155 & 160gr 6.5VLD pills right? And skinny bullets handle wind better?
Newbs...
Still the king!
 
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