Rat shot for a revolver?

[Fox]

Anyone load mini shotgun shells for a revolver?

I have been toying with the idea for an antique. The thought was to put a step in the case, put in the powder, a card wad then shot and a card wad, seal with carpenters glue.

The issue I see now though is that the gun is black powder only, since it needs some compression I am concerned about the BP not being compressed enough if I run a rod through the neck rather than a full diameter compression that I use for seating bullets.

I also have the option of just making a case that runs up to the step in the cylinder then seating a card wad, shot, card wad and glue but the amount of shot is only about 50 grains in that case or about 40 #7 1/2 shot. I was thinking of buying a box of 12ga skeet loads with #9 shot to cannibalize but want to prove the concept first.

 

[kjohn]

I bought a small bag of #12 shot to use in my Lee Enfield .410's.

 

[Suther]

They sell dies for making 45 acp shot shells. I'd look on YouTube for some video on those, should give you some ideas of how to go about this project. There is also a bunch of vids about making them without the special dies, check some of those out too.

 

[Fox]

They sell dies for making 45 acp shot shells. I'd look on YouTube for some video on those, should give you some ideas of how to go about this project. There is also a bunch of vids about making them without the special dies, check some of those out too.

I have looked at tons of them, pretty much what has gotten me to this point.

I guess my main concern is the compression of the black powder, in a necked case the black powder will not all be compressed into a cookie like it would with a straight walled case.

 

[Ganderite]

I have done it - and used them on pests.

With a 357 or 44Mag sized case it is easy.

A small dose of fast powder, a wad, shot topped with card and white glue.

You don't want much velocity - otherwise the pattern is blown.

I used a steel can (apple juice can makes a good target) to develop the load. You want the velocity that will penetrate one side of the can, but not the other.

Speer makes plastic capsules you can load with shot. This allows more shot than just a card at the case mouth. Last I looked they had them in 38 and 44 size.

Since the load has to be mild, can you use Bullseye or 700X in your case?

 

[Fox]

Since the load has to be mild, can you use Bullseye or 700X in your case?

I do not feel safe using smokeless, the pistol was made between 1878 and 1882 and it is American, so the proofing is not as well known.

I have some of the Speer capsules but they are too long, I tried to cut one down but they are very brittle, I will play with them though, maybe an exacto knife, a very sharp one, would do the trick.

The load for the bullet is really low, 12gr of FFFg, so anything smokeless to me would be a risk I do not feel like taking.

Do you load black powder? Does it just need to be in intimate contact or does it need to be a compressed cookie? Maybe I should post this in the Antique section as well.

 

[jethunter]

For indoor pest shooting on the farm, I used hot glue bullets in a cartridge loaded with the primer and no powder. Better accuracy and a bit more range than the shot shells and they should work in any antique pistol cartridge I can think of without much messing around - no powder, no cards, fillers, or spacers. And you can reuse the bullets.

 

[vagrantviking]

The powder doesn't need to be compressed but tends to burn more consistently and cleanly if you do.

The cases you are describing making shouldn't have too much of a neck and there were bottleneck black powder cartridges back in the day too.
If there are dies available for the 45acp I suspect they might serve you well or possibly they make the same for 44 Russian or Special.

 

[salarguy]

I do not feel safe using smokeless, the pistol was made between 1878 and 1882 and it is American, so the proofing is not as well known.

I have some of the Speer capsules but they are too long, I tried to cut one down but they are very brittle, I will play with them though, maybe an exacto knife, a very sharp one, would do the trick.

The load for the bullet is really low, 12gr of FFFg, so anything smokeless to me would be a risk I do not feel like taking.

Do you load black powder? Does it just need to be in intimate contact or does it need to be a compressed cookie? Maybe I should post this in the Antique section as well.

I used 2.8 Bullseye in the 38 Speer loads and 3.6 in the 44s, with #12 shot.

 

[Snider shooter]

I have been playing with a 41 magnum, 30-30 cases 410 wads and plastic coffee can for over powder wads. The cases are cut to just short of cylinder length. Wads are cut just below case mouth. 5 grs of Reddot , top wad is crimped. Killed a few cans and coffee cups so far. The cases don't expand much with this load so I loaded with BP and glued a cork was in. Expands the case so it will hold more shot.

 

[Fox]

The powder doesn't need to be compressed but tends to burn more consistently and cleanly if you do.

The cases you are describing making shouldn't have too much of a neck and there were bottleneck black powder cartridges back in the day too.
If there are dies available for the 45acp I suspect they might serve you well or possibly they make the same for 44 Russian or Special.

BP cannot have air space like smokeless, I know that for sure.

I made a couple compression rods at work on Friday, was not able to test them out on the weekend but essentially they will fit through the bottle neck that I am making and seat a card wad on top of the BP. If the lead shot on top of that is pushed down like you would with a crimp then this should be enough to stop from making a pipe bomb.

I will never use smokeless in this gun, I have talked to a gunsmith about it that I trust and he said BP is fine but anything smokeless would be very sketchy with this particular gun.

 

[salarguy]

They sell dies for making 45 acp shot shells. I'd look on YouTube for some video on those, should give you some ideas of how to go about this project. There is also a bunch of vids about making them without the special dies, check some of those out too.

I used standard RCBS 38/357 and 44 mag dies to prep my rat shot.

 

[Fox]

I used standard RCBS 38/357 and 44 mag dies to prep my rat shot.

I played with what I have.

44 Special dies to size and decap, start the case neck with a 7.62x39 die then it will fit into a 30-30 die, which is idea inside the cylinder.

I do not reload any pistols besides this Webley, so I do not have all the other dies sitting around.

 

[jethunter]

BP cannot have air space like smokeless, I know that for sure.

I made a couple compression rods at work on Friday, was not able to test them out on the weekend but essentially they will fit through the bottle neck that I am making and seat a card wad on top of the BP. If the lead shot on top of that is pushed down like you would with a crimp then this should be enough to stop from making a pipe bomb.

I will never use smokeless in this gun, I have talked to a gunsmith about it that I trust and he said BP is fine but anything smokeless would be very sketchy with this particular gun.

BP should not have any airspace in the cartridge.

You can load smokeless powder to BP pressure levels and there is lots of data for doing it. The practise is maybe not for everyone because with ANY smokeless reloading there are ways to screw up, and there is less margin for error in the lower pressure BP guns. Black powder is harder to mess up in most circumstances but can be more complicated in bottle neck cartridges like you are using, for obvious reasons.

But you should not think that using smokeless powder in a cartridge or firearm that was originally BP is automatically a bad thing, because it's not. Winchester, Federal, Remington, etc have been doing exactly that with great success for over a century. If a firearm is in poor shape, then using BP loads are just as likely to cause damage as properly loaded smokeless powder cartridges. Those firearms should be retired.

 

[Fox]

BP should not have any airspace in the cartridge.

You can load smokeless powder to BP pressure levels and there is lots of data for doing it. The practise is maybe not for everyone because with ANY smokeless reloading there are ways to screw up, and there is less margin for error in the lower pressure BP guns. Black powder is harder to mess up in most circumstances but can be more complicated in bottle neck cartridges like you are using, for obvious reasons.

But you should not think that using smokeless powder in a cartridge or firearm that was originally BP is automatically a bad thing, because it's not. Winchester, Federal, Remington, etc have been doing exactly that with great success for over a century. If a firearm is in poor shape, then using BP loads are just as likely to cause damage as properly loaded smokeless powder cartridges. Those firearms should be retired.

The gun is perfectly good and functional, it has been checked by the best gunsmith in Eastern Ontario and I was advised due to the age, the material and the unknown proof to only use black powder in this pistol. Anyone else can choose to do what they want with it but seeing that it is my hand holding on to it I will use only black powder.

I do not have the tooling to test a round like Winchester, Federal or Remington and an inside lubricated 44 Webley (?) is not something well known, well documented or well tested so I will stick with what I was advised to load for it.

He also said I can shoot any lead 2 3/4" loads in an 1897 shotgun made in the 20s, so the guy is being real, not just leaning on the side of safety.

 

[jethunter]

The gun is perfectly good and functional, it has been checked by the best gunsmith in Eastern Ontario and I was advised due to the age, the material and the unknown proof to only use black powder in this pistol. Anyone else can choose to do what they want with it but seeing that it is my hand holding on to it I will use only black powder.

I do not have the tooling to test a round like Winchester, Federal or Remington and an inside lubricated 44 Webley (?) is not something well known, well documented or well tested so I will stick with what I was advised to load for it.

He also said I can shoot any lead 2 3/4" loads in an 1897 shotgun made in the 20s, so the guy is being real, not just leaning on the side of safety.

I have loaded for and shot 44 webley in a few different versions, but all of them were made prior to 1890. Have only loaded smokeless powder for them and never surpassed light BP pressure levels. 44 webley is a PIA due to all the different versions. I've seen 44 webleys that needed a heeled bullet and others that used a non-heeled bullet, but I haven't heard of a bottleneck version before.

I would not use 2.75" shells in a gun with 2.5" chambers, if that's what you are getting at because that can cause elevated pressures and not a good practise. I shoot only 2.5" shells in my 2.5" chambered shotguns.

 

[Fox]

I have loaded for and shot 44 webley in a few different versions, but all of them were made prior to 1890. Have only loaded smokeless powder for them and never surpassed light BP pressure levels. 44 webley is a PIA due to all the different versions. I've seen 44 webleys that needed a heeled bullet and others that used a non-heeled bullet, but I haven't heard of a bottleneck version before.

The round is not a bottle neck, I was wondering about making a bottle neck case to fill out the space that the bullet would take up in the cylinder to maximize the amount of shot possible, similar to what is done with a shot load for the 45 ACP.

This pistol is odd, it is an American made Iver Johnson, made between 1878 and 1882, that I know based on the books. The Cylinder is only 1.252", a 44 Mag case necked down a bit fits the cylinder perfectly, the length is perfect. The step in the cylinder is at .97", which is a 44 Russian case length but the cylinder is too short for 44 Russian and none of these were made for 44 Russian from what I know of. The headspace fits a 44 Russian/Special/Magnum rim thickness though, the 44 Webley factory rim thickness is too thin for it.

These old American guns are really odd, might it actually be a 44 Russian variant with a lighter and therefore shorter bullet?

Anyway, back to the thread, the thought was a light shot load for fun, but maybe sticking with a .97" long case for rat shot or a shortened Speer capsule is the best option here.

 

[jethunter]

The round is not a bottle neck, I was wondering about making a bottle neck case to fill out the space that the bullet would take up in the cylinder to maximize the amount of shot possible, similar to what is done with a shot load for the 45 ACP.

This pistol is odd, it is an American made Iver Johnson, made between 1878 and 1882, that I know based on the books. The Cylinder is only 1.252", a 44 Mag case necked down a bit fits the cylinder perfectly, the length is perfect. The step in the cylinder is at .97", which is a 44 Russian case length but the cylinder is too short for 44 Russian and none of these were made for 44 Russian from what I know of. The headspace fits a 44 Russian/Special/Magnum rim thickness though, the 44 Webley factory rim thickness is too thin for it.

These old American guns are really odd, might it actually be a 44 Russian variant with a lighter and therefore shorter bullet?

Anyway, back to the thread, the thought was a light shot load for fun, but maybe sticking with a .97" long case for rat shot or a shortened Speer capsule is the best option here.

I'd hazard a guess that the reason 44 webley cartridges don't fit is because your revolver is made for the 44 Bulldog cartridge, noit 44 webley cartridge.

You need a loaded cartridge that is under .97" in your revolver. The 44 Bull Dog cartridge has a COAL of 0.95" and that's probably what your revolver is chambered for. The 44 bulldog case is 0.57" long empty. Maybe your gunsmith thought 44 webley and 44 bulldog cartridges were the same thing.

.44 Bull Dog is not the same as 44 webley or 44 Russian. People have made 44 bull dog brass from .44 special or .44 mag brass. That's what I'd do if it were me.

I've only seen a couple of the Iver Johnson bulldog pistols but both were chambered for .44 Bull Dog and wouldn't accept full length 44 Webley cartridge but there were many variations.

There is an article on Wikipedia that has some mistakes in it but shows a picture of the .44 Bull Dog beside a .44 Webley cartridge.
The bulldog cartridge is on the left side, middle is 44 webley, right side is RIC 442.

 

[Fox]

You need a loaded cartridge that is under .97" in your revolver. The 44 Bull Dog cartridge has a COAL of 0.95" and I'd say that is probably what your revolver is chambered for. The 44 bulldog case is 0.57" long empty. Maybe your gunsmith hasn't heard of that cartridge and that's what is causing the confusion.

.44 Bull Dog is not the same as 44 webley or 44 Russian. People have made 44 bull dog brass from .44 special or .44 mag brass. That's what I'd do if it were me.

I've only seen a couple of the Iver Johnson bulldog pistols. They were chambered for .44 Bull Dog and wouldn't accept full length 44 Webley cartridge but there were many variations.

There is an article on Wikipedia that has a lot of mistakes in it but shows a picture of the .44 Bull Dog beside a .44 Webley cartridge.

I am fully aware of the wiki and the size differences, I have both at my home.

Can you please explain the stepped cylinder then with a .442 bullet heeled bullet and a bore that is .429? 13 thou compression before exiting the cylinder then 13 thou bump out to just engage the rifling seems insane.

The bore was slugged, a soft lead .430 bullet fits is perfectly and passed through the cylinder step easily.

This is not a British gun, this is an American gun.

 

[Fox]

Here is a link to the first model Iver Johnson.

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/iver-johnson-american-bulldog-1st-type.45199/

Here is another.

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/iver-johnson-1st-model-44-questions.66246/

They made inside lubricated and heeled versions as this was the transition time between those bullet styles. I am sure that if you drilled out this cylinder it would shoot .442 heeled bullets as the throat is large but with the cylinder the way it is I think you would be asking for trouble.