bclinehand
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Clearwater B.C.
So there is no charge for the instructor but the course still costs 50 bucks........and where does this money go?
IDPA/CDPA Whinning and #####ing
- Thread starter dinsdale
- Start date
PrairieMedic
CGN frequent flyer
Range rental and supplies. No money goes to any parent org, unless it's for the CSSA Membership. If there was no cost for targets, pasters, range, it would make for a free course.
For MDPL.ca we mandated CSSA membership for members, but waived a membership fee. Same as what we provide for the course. Our concern is quickly identifying people who were insured, and competent. So for a new shooter coming out, they would pay for a CSSA annual membership, and the course fee.
I noticed the in the IDPA rules they also ask that you become a member of the NRA for parent insurance coverage. Pretty close to what everyone does in discipline's around here. Some are NFA, some are CSSA. However, I think that CSSA and NFA coverage are much more relevant up here.
Why all the concern with where the money goes? Is there some pot of hidden gold in somebody's basement? Tinfoil hat on.
For MDPL.ca we mandated CSSA membership for members, but waived a membership fee. Same as what we provide for the course. Our concern is quickly identifying people who were insured, and competent. So for a new shooter coming out, they would pay for a CSSA annual membership, and the course fee.
I noticed the in the IDPA rules they also ask that you become a member of the NRA for parent insurance coverage. Pretty close to what everyone does in discipline's around here. Some are NFA, some are CSSA. However, I think that CSSA and NFA coverage are much more relevant up here.
Why all the concern with where the money goes? Is there some pot of hidden gold in somebody's basement? Tinfoil hat on.
PrairieMedic said:
IDPA only recommends that you become a member of the NFA, not the NRA and it is not mandatory. The NFA insurance covers you when you shoot in Canada and the United States for any shooting discipline. Your club and/or CSSA insurance only covers you in Canada.
P.S. It is always wise to read your/any insurance covers to see what you really get is what you paid/pay for.
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Sorry but I have to get involved.
The Rail Riders Versatac pants are far better than the 5.11, and that's not ego.
The Versatac lite pants can be worn on the hottest day in the summer and you won't sweat your bag off like in the 5.11s or others.
Do yourself a favour, take a look at the Versatc pants before commiting to the other brands.
Farmboy
Not sure why one pant would be warmer than the other. I experienced your high temperature, high humidity summers for 10 years and would wear the 5.11 shorts when things get really warm.
Biggest advantage of the 5.11 Tactical pant/shorts is the slanted back pocket without flaps that assists with the quick storage of mags when a tactical reload load is required.
Don't sell either ..buy what you want both seem to work.
Take Care
Bob
Not sure why one pant would be warmer than the other. I experienced your high temperature, high humidity summers for 10 years and would wear the 5.11 shorts when things get really warm.
Biggest advantage of the 5.11 Tactical pant/shorts is the slanted back pocket without flaps that assists with the quick storage of mags when a tactical reload load is required.
Don't sell either ..buy what you want both seem to work.
Take Care
Bob
There seems to be quite a bit of rumour mongering, insinuations and outright lies being posted about the CSSA's Canadian Defensive Pistol (CDP) program. This posting is in response to some of the more outrageous accusations. Please consider the following points.
1 - Three years ago, we noted that several clubs were becoming interested in IDPA type competitions without any holster training requirement. Since IDPA did not offer any competitor certification courses, the CSSA Board of Directors authorized Dave Burke and his committee to create one in the interest of safety and to protect our insurance coverage. IDPA was contacted by letter but we received no response. We then decided to carry on developing the course and offering it to any clubs and members that were interested.
2 - We modified the IDPA rules as posted on the internet but at no time did we 'sell' copies of the rules. Course participants were referred to the IDPA website to download the rules. We have on several occasions attempted to purchase quantities of the IDPA rules books to hand out to course participants but IDPA refused to acknowledge our orders. (Just as an aside, we purchase and sell large quantities of NRA rule books with no problems whatsoever).
At that time IDPA targets were difficult to come by and shipping from the US was a problem so Dave, at his own expense, purchased a cutting die and printed a similar target for the clubs and for training purposes. Only 1,000 were printed 2 years ago and most were purchased by one club.
3 - Our course is national and we have CDP instructors in 3 provinces with more expressing interest.
4 - We charge a fee for all of our training courses (Handgun Safety Instructor, PPC Competitor, PPC R.O., Range Safety Officer, Range Official, coaching, marksmanship training, etc.) and the CDP course is no different. All funds collected are sent to the CSSA office and are used to support our shooting and training programs. The instructors are reimbursed only for their expenses (with receipts). The fee is $50 and participants must be CSSA members. Additional costs may be incurred due to range rental fees (out of our control). Although, most clubs offer their facilities for free. All of our instructors are volunteers and receive no remuneration whatsoever for their time and efforts.
5 – There is no sanctioning fee charged for clubs hosting CDP matches nor is there any fee charged for classification cards. Hosting clubs are free to charge whatever match fees they see fit.
Note that shooters holding IPSC Black Badge certifications and CSSA PPC certifications are exempt from taking the CDP course.
6 - We have been in contact with IDPA on a continuing basis since the Shot Show in January where Dave and I met personally with Robert Ray, IDPA Membership and Marketing Manager, on the topic of an official affiliation. Our overtures were well received at the time. There have been some misunderstandings and confused communications since then which have been vastly exaggerated by rumour-mongers. There are no legal issues and we have agreed to continue our discussions on formal recognition and sanctioning. Unfortunately, that seems to be on hold right now due to the actions of some individuals who are desperately trying to sabotage any affiliation between CSSA and IDPA.
7 - At no time was there any intent to miss-lead anyone in regards to CDP. We saw a need for training courses and we acted. We make no apologies for that. We will continue to offer the courses as long as there is a demand for them.
Those who want to compete in IDPA type competitions and shoot outside the country should support and join IDPA. Those who have no intention of shooting outside of Canada can make a choice. They can send their $55 + to IDPA in the US and they will receive a hat, pin and membership and a publication. Or, they can join the CSSA for $45 and receive the following:
· Legislative advocacy - for the protection of our rights and our sport
· $5,000,000 liability insurance for all shooting activities
· Club Insurance, including Directors & Officers coverage
· $4,000 accidental death and dismemberment benefit
· Access to our Emergency Legal Fund
· Free issue and discounted subscription to Outdoor Canada magazine
· Training courses
· Recreational shooting activities, sanctioned matches, etc.
· Annual subscription to Canadian Shooting Sports Magazine
· Special communication updates on legislative matters
· Discount program e.g. eyeglasses, hotels and more
· Special Discounted Home and Auto Insurance
· Special Discounted property and equipment insurance for clubs and ranges
· Preferred pricing card from Marks Work Wearhouse (10%)
· Discounted services from Rogers Communications and more.
Or if they wish to spend the money, they can join both.
IDPA is a fine organization and we sincerely hope we can find a way to work together to promote IDPA style shooting in Canada. However, Canadian gun owners should not forget which organization is fighting in the courts, on parliament hill and at the UN on their behalf.
I hope this will put to rest these ridiculous rumours and false accusations. These types of conflicts do indeed cause rifts in the fraternity and give aid and comfort to the Wendys of this world.
If anyone has any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me directly.
Larry Whitmore
Executive Director – CSSA
l.whitmore@cdnshootingsports.org
1 - Three years ago, we noted that several clubs were becoming interested in IDPA type competitions without any holster training requirement. Since IDPA did not offer any competitor certification courses, the CSSA Board of Directors authorized Dave Burke and his committee to create one in the interest of safety and to protect our insurance coverage. IDPA was contacted by letter but we received no response. We then decided to carry on developing the course and offering it to any clubs and members that were interested.
2 - We modified the IDPA rules as posted on the internet but at no time did we 'sell' copies of the rules. Course participants were referred to the IDPA website to download the rules. We have on several occasions attempted to purchase quantities of the IDPA rules books to hand out to course participants but IDPA refused to acknowledge our orders. (Just as an aside, we purchase and sell large quantities of NRA rule books with no problems whatsoever).
At that time IDPA targets were difficult to come by and shipping from the US was a problem so Dave, at his own expense, purchased a cutting die and printed a similar target for the clubs and for training purposes. Only 1,000 were printed 2 years ago and most were purchased by one club.
3 - Our course is national and we have CDP instructors in 3 provinces with more expressing interest.
4 - We charge a fee for all of our training courses (Handgun Safety Instructor, PPC Competitor, PPC R.O., Range Safety Officer, Range Official, coaching, marksmanship training, etc.) and the CDP course is no different. All funds collected are sent to the CSSA office and are used to support our shooting and training programs. The instructors are reimbursed only for their expenses (with receipts). The fee is $50 and participants must be CSSA members. Additional costs may be incurred due to range rental fees (out of our control). Although, most clubs offer their facilities for free. All of our instructors are volunteers and receive no remuneration whatsoever for their time and efforts.
5 – There is no sanctioning fee charged for clubs hosting CDP matches nor is there any fee charged for classification cards. Hosting clubs are free to charge whatever match fees they see fit.
Note that shooters holding IPSC Black Badge certifications and CSSA PPC certifications are exempt from taking the CDP course.
6 - We have been in contact with IDPA on a continuing basis since the Shot Show in January where Dave and I met personally with Robert Ray, IDPA Membership and Marketing Manager, on the topic of an official affiliation. Our overtures were well received at the time. There have been some misunderstandings and confused communications since then which have been vastly exaggerated by rumour-mongers. There are no legal issues and we have agreed to continue our discussions on formal recognition and sanctioning. Unfortunately, that seems to be on hold right now due to the actions of some individuals who are desperately trying to sabotage any affiliation between CSSA and IDPA.
7 - At no time was there any intent to miss-lead anyone in regards to CDP. We saw a need for training courses and we acted. We make no apologies for that. We will continue to offer the courses as long as there is a demand for them.
Those who want to compete in IDPA type competitions and shoot outside the country should support and join IDPA. Those who have no intention of shooting outside of Canada can make a choice. They can send their $55 + to IDPA in the US and they will receive a hat, pin and membership and a publication. Or, they can join the CSSA for $45 and receive the following:
· Legislative advocacy - for the protection of our rights and our sport
· $5,000,000 liability insurance for all shooting activities
· Club Insurance, including Directors & Officers coverage
· $4,000 accidental death and dismemberment benefit
· Access to our Emergency Legal Fund
· Free issue and discounted subscription to Outdoor Canada magazine
· Training courses
· Recreational shooting activities, sanctioned matches, etc.
· Annual subscription to Canadian Shooting Sports Magazine
· Special communication updates on legislative matters
· Discount program e.g. eyeglasses, hotels and more
· Special Discounted Home and Auto Insurance
· Special Discounted property and equipment insurance for clubs and ranges
· Preferred pricing card from Marks Work Wearhouse (10%)
· Discounted services from Rogers Communications and more.
Or if they wish to spend the money, they can join both.
IDPA is a fine organization and we sincerely hope we can find a way to work together to promote IDPA style shooting in Canada. However, Canadian gun owners should not forget which organization is fighting in the courts, on parliament hill and at the UN on their behalf.
I hope this will put to rest these ridiculous rumours and false accusations. These types of conflicts do indeed cause rifts in the fraternity and give aid and comfort to the Wendys of this world.
If anyone has any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me directly.
Larry Whitmore
Executive Director – CSSA
l.whitmore@cdnshootingsports.org
Sorry but I have to get involved.
The Rail Riders Versatac pants are far better than the 5.11, and that's not ego.
The Versatac lite pants can be worn on the hottest day in the summer and you won't sweat your bag off like in the 5.11s or others.
Do yourself a favour, take a look at the Versatc pants before commiting to the other brands.
I agree, the original pants I have I wear in the winter or late fall. You sweat your balls off in hotter weather. There is also a thinner version which is supposed to be of lighter/cooler material.
Royal Robbins in the USA look very nice as well.
LKW said:
Page 57 from the IDPA rule book:
IDPA HQ strongly recommends that clubs appoint an experienced
shooter to administer a basic safety program for new competitors
who have not competed in any action shooting, practical shooting,
or other shooting discipline that requires drawing a firearm from a
holster and movement. The typical class should include at least the
following areas:
Loading and unloading the weapon.
Drawing from holster and re-holstering.
Gripping the firearm with strong hand, weak hand,
and freestyle.
Sight alignment.
Trigger control.
Reloading (slide lock, tactical reload and reload
w/retention).
Moving with a drawn weapon.
Shooting stances, including prone shooting and
barricade shooting.
Clearing malfunctions.
How matches are scored.
Range commands and procedures.
LKW said:
The only rule I know of that is modified from the IDPA rulebook online by the CDPA is the revolver barrel length allowed to 6 inches. IDPA Canada allows for the same barrel length in form of a national exemption for Canada due to the 4 inch barreled handgun prohibition.
http://www.idpacanada.com/idpa_canada_013.htm members were told the IDPA website address and to download the rules.
LKW said:
When I took my CDPA competitors course, the CDPA tests, paperwork, and training material all had the official IDPA logo’s on them. There was even an official IDPA rule book on hand for reference. While they did not outright sell the IDPA rule book, they did sell the CDPA as IDPA by way of the CDPA course. We were told from the beginning that CDPA was IDPA and that it was affiliated. Was it a shame or a lie? It sure seemed like “bait and switch” to me.
LKW said:
When I took my CDPA competitors course it was $50 for the competitors course plus $50 for the CSSA membership plus the instructor asked for donations… so for me it was $115 to shoot CDPA and $62 to shoot IDPA in or out of Canada.
LKW said:
Is there any legal requirement to be a member of CSSA or any other national organization to shoot CDPA, IDPA, IPSC, PPC, Service rifle, or any other shooting discipline? I know there is no requirement for IDPA, IPSC, Service rifle, Bulls eye etc.
LKW said:
On my CDPA course there were 12 student who all paid $100 plus donations, did the CSSA receive all monies less expenses?
LKW said:
I am IPSC Black Badge qualified, I told the instructor prior to the course but I still had to take the CDPA competitors course. Not once did mention that I did not have to take the course.
LKW said:
True, in January 2006 at the Shot Show, but when I took my CDPA competitors course in early 2005, we were told by the instructor that the CDPA was already affiliated with IDPA.
LKW said:
They are only false accusations if they are actually False as for the rumours... there are many going around both ways.
LKW said:
It seemed right from the start we were miss-lead, from the start with all the paperwork with the official IDPA logo’s on them coupled with outright statements from your instructor that the CDPA was actually affiliated with the IDPA a year prior to your seeking affiliation at the Shot Show. It is my opinion that only after we started asking pertinent questions of which we were getting less than truthful answers that an official affiliation was sought.
What soured me the most was, after we spent a full day assisting and informally coaching 4 senior citizen CDPA members at our local club with skills and drills for CDPA, that soon afterwards your instructor called and adamantly demanded that we go back and charge $50.00 to each of the seniors and send the monies directly to him (your instructor). We politely refused.
It is my belief that if the CDPA was forthright from the beginning, and had sought affiliation prior to launching the CDPA we would not be in this situation.
I do not like being lied too, or conned.
It is my hope that all these issues and many others get resolved amicably for the sake of all our shooters.
Steve David
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Oshawa, Ontario
Exactly what situation are we in here? All I have seen from the beginning of this thread, which I may add originally started as an invitation to participate in a CDP course at TSE in Calgary, but was blatently turned into a s**t storm and slam session by some IDPA members. For us in CDP it is about fun only. You want to shoot it, shoot it, if you don't then don't. Can we put this to rest now?
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Steve David
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Oshawa, Ontario
Vygur,
Go back through the thread and find were anyone who supports CDP has slammed IDPA in any way. But there are several posts were IDPA has done their best to point out what CDP has done wrong and how bad it is. My point all along from the first post I put in was that CDP was here first, we were chomping at the bit to shoot again and this is what we went with. Further to that, I have perosnally in most of my posts supported all styles of combat shooting and invited all CFO approved diciplines to join us at our club for shoots with the most important part being the fun aspect. I would not try to deter you from shooting ony of thses style of shooting, whether it be CDP, IDPA, ODPL or some of the indipendant leagues, they are all fun.
Go back through the thread and find were anyone who supports CDP has slammed IDPA in any way. But there are several posts were IDPA has done their best to point out what CDP has done wrong and how bad it is. My point all along from the first post I put in was that CDP was here first, we were chomping at the bit to shoot again and this is what we went with. Further to that, I have perosnally in most of my posts supported all styles of combat shooting and invited all CFO approved diciplines to join us at our club for shoots with the most important part being the fun aspect. I would not try to deter you from shooting ony of thses style of shooting, whether it be CDP, IDPA, ODPL or some of the indipendant leagues, they are all fun.
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Steve David
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Oshawa, Ontario
Well I can tell you that we do not have this problem, but if you are ever out this way, you are more then welcome to participate at our club. Like I said, our first and for most priority is fun, that is it.
The statement in red is wrong!
IDPA predates CDP (in Canada) by about 7 years. IIRC it was BRRC that was on IDPA's web site back then. For some reason (don't ask, don't know) they left IDPA and then about 3 or so years ago Sarnia picked up IDPA.
Shoot what you want, but for Christ's sake shoot.
Vygur:
The ''#####, #####, #####ing'' seems to come from only a handful of individuals
for reasons that are still unclear. The rest of us, as Steve David keeps saying, are in it for the fun aspect and really don't give two s**ts as to what these individuals are whining about.
For me personally, I have looked at the different disciplines, and while I feel they all have something to offer, this is what I settled on, and may add that the individuals I've met, such as Dave Burke, Steve David et al, are all ''first class , upstanding'' people.
If we're excluded from IDPA matches in the U.S., so be it! Personally,I really
don't care.
It seems there are a few individuals who are scared of the new kid on the block. Why? Because someone took the initiative to go with something new?
People, get over it. It seems that most of this 'pi$$ing and moaning' is just an attempt to build up your post count and has really no merit.
IMHO.
The ''#####, #####, #####ing'' seems to come from only a handful of individuals
for reasons that are still unclear. The rest of us, as Steve David keeps saying, are in it for the fun aspect and really don't give two s**ts as to what these individuals are whining about.
For me personally, I have looked at the different disciplines, and while I feel they all have something to offer, this is what I settled on, and may add that the individuals I've met, such as Dave Burke, Steve David et al, are all ''first class , upstanding'' people.
If we're excluded from IDPA matches in the U.S., so be it! Personally,I really
don't care.
It seems there are a few individuals who are scared of the new kid on the block. Why? Because someone took the initiative to go with something new?
People, get over it. It seems that most of this 'pi$$ing and moaning' is just an attempt to build up your post count and has really no merit.
IMHO.
Steve David
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Oshawa, Ontario
I understand and agree 100% Repete, but after all the range crap we had to endure here in Ontario for almost 2 years while waiting for range approval, CDP was approved by the CFO first and that is the reason we went with it. If IDPA was first we would have gone with that. Again, it is all about fun and that is the only thing I have continuously advocated through out this thread.
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Ipsc, Cdpa, Idpa...
I am a new member to IDPA, I did my first shoot with the generous help of Dragoon back in June. The people I met there were great folks. All of them great shots. I was expecting to see a lot of active and ex-military and private citizens, but I was pleasantly surprised to see a much broader selection of the spectrum. I talked to a lot of people, I asked a lot of questions and got a lot of answers.
I was even lucky enough to have a couple of fine gentlemen offer me the use of thier pistols. Dragoon is one of these gents. Thanks again for the use of the gun Dragoon! The other gentleman I have no idea if he comes here or not, but thanks nonetheless! The quality of the people I met was in short, inspiring.
Do I think that the CDPA or IPSC are lesser than IDPA? Hell no. I think that it is more what I am interested in, with the opportunity to compete almost anywhere in the world under the IDPA umbrella and the focus on the more practical carry element. Don't get me wrong, the people in IPSC are top notch people and can shoot (boy can they shoot! I know a couple of folks from there who are phenomenal shots). But it is not for me at this point in time.
I suggest to anybody that they look around, find the one(s) that best fit(s) them and go with it.
I am a new member to IDPA, I did my first shoot with the generous help of Dragoon back in June. The people I met there were great folks. All of them great shots. I was expecting to see a lot of active and ex-military and private citizens, but I was pleasantly surprised to see a much broader selection of the spectrum. I talked to a lot of people, I asked a lot of questions and got a lot of answers.
I was even lucky enough to have a couple of fine gentlemen offer me the use of thier pistols. Dragoon is one of these gents. Thanks again for the use of the gun Dragoon! The other gentleman I have no idea if he comes here or not, but thanks nonetheless! The quality of the people I met was in short, inspiring.
Do I think that the CDPA or IPSC are lesser than IDPA? Hell no. I think that it is more what I am interested in, with the opportunity to compete almost anywhere in the world under the IDPA umbrella and the focus on the more practical carry element. Don't get me wrong, the people in IPSC are top notch people and can shoot (boy can they shoot! I know a couple of folks from there who are phenomenal shots). But it is not for me at this point in time.
I suggest to anybody that they look around, find the one(s) that best fit(s) them and go with it.
