IDPA/CDPA Whinning and #####ing

SteveS said:
... I was surprised that you decided to lower the tone of the post you submitted to the "we are better than you are" mentality of stating such things as Dave Burke and CSSA are more successful than IDPA in promoting the sport, where are these statistics of yours coming from, or are they just part of the ongoing CDP misinformation campaign.
I would caution everyone to take an objective look at the merits of the respective organizations and to make an informed decision, from this, they can formulate their own opinions. We live in a free and democratic society where everyone has free will to decide which organization they choose to affiliate with and to not fall victim to cult minded propaganda.
However, if you insist on bringing up these issues, I have an ethical and moral obligation to disppell any untruths with respect to IDPA. We at IDPA do not care what other organizations do, at least at the shooter level, but I implore others to refrain from dragging us into and comparing us to their respective organizations.


Steve Shirley
IDPA Area Coordinator for Canada
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Steve, since began posting on this board in regard to IPDA, your posts have been condescending to all who care to comment. Nothing I said implies that either is better than the other, OTHER THAN my perception based solely on the numbers presented in this thread that CDP and its derivatives like ODPA seem to have attracted and embraced somewhat more participants that IPDA Canada has thus far. I agree that's probably not a fair comment, since your new old-is-new-again is only getting started. However, some of your colleagues across Canada persist in creating exactly the same atmosphere that is keeping people out of IPSC. I know many of the IPDA shooters in Ontario and have shot with several of them. Really, and I think you'd be hard to argue this, if they closed Petawawa, most of your Ontario branch would disappear ;).

I have little to no knowledge of what has transpired between Dave Burke and the rest of the world since I took the course - I was commenting on the roots of CDPA in its infancy. It was clear at the time that there were unresolved issues, and it was clear at the time that Dave was doing his best to get some interest going in (I)PDA and I'm also aware he was doing it on a shoestring.

This fight exists because you and your colleagues keep INSISTING that anything else is NOT IPDA. We all get that! Steve David keeps trying to say that CDPA exists quite happily as an IPDA-like sport tailored to a good sized crowd of shooters that are much less concerned about organizational rigidity than IPDA is, and continually gets the "but its not IPDA" refrain. Its getting tiresome hearing constantly that IPDA-like sports are not IPDA. No one but you cares!

I will tell you plainly that your style and the style of some of your western colleagues has pretty much killed any interest I had in IPDA, which was why I went to the CDPA course in the first place. My shooting time is far too rare and of necessity far too casual for the more aggressive disciplines like IPSC. The present concept of CDPA and the local ODPA variant fulfills that niche nicely, and I frankly don't give a rat's butt whether its sanctioned by Arkansas or not.

The sad truth is that a great golden opportunity for a truly national handgun sport for casual shooters in Canada has probably been scuttled by the stupid in-fighting. So goes the future of handguns in Canada.
 
Skip

It is not a question of can the government outlaw shooting sports. Of course they can. The question is will they and for what purpose and gain.

There is no reason for them to do so nor is there any gain politically for them.

The civil service created a problem with reloading and proposed to the government an extensive list of proposals to regulate the hooby. The Liberal Government wasn't interested in rushing into it and when the Conservatives got their minority we went from participating in a hobby that need pages of new regulations to one where the government acknowledged it was a safe undertaking that required no further regulations.

Your comments are nothing more than fear mongering at best. This is the same road we went down with the CORE programs and boating regulations. Create a problem, come up with a solution and sell it to the public. Unlike these two earlier examples there is no long list of tragedies to demonstrate the need for government involvement. Non, nada.

Well you are going to have one heck of a time proving there is a major safety issue when there are no accidents, deaths or tradgedies to back up your concerns.

From what I have seen CSSA sees this as a way to increase revenues and membership by promoting their holster course and frankly the more success they have in convincing the government of the need for same the more sucessful they will be in increasing revenue stream from shooters, for themselves and those associated with the program.

"Good luck in your parallel universe" - yes we have Ontario with Toronto in the center in one universe and the rest of the country in another.

Take Care,

Bob
 
Bob - I guess you were out of the country when c68 came. The government doesn't need a reason to bring in legislation that favours its ideological position, not at the federal level. THAT statement has been affirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada. And given the current ideological bent of the present Liberal party of Canada, you have a high probability of losing your handguns in their next majority. That's not fear-mongering, that's reality.

The CSSA didn't go to the Ont CFO and ask to give courses. The Ont CFO re-affirmed its pre-c68 position of forcing CSSA to either come up with a course, as it had with with CSSA's earlier life as the Ontario Handgun Association (membership in the OHA was a requirement of the CFO, pre-c68), or the CFO would mandate its own , at user expense. Just like the Ont CFO doesn't want to talk to individual gun owners (costs too much) about ATTs, it also doesn't want to talk to individual clubs about safety training. Ontario has a long history of mandating user groups do the leg work for the government in applying regulation, and in the recent fiscal environment, that has only gotten worse.
I don't have a problem with CSSA trying to raise funds any way it can. It needs every buck it can find to fight off government, and at the same time try to encourage Canadian shooters to get out and participate. I can't comment on what went on with Burke after I last talked him at the course. My guess is he was fighting an uphill battle to keep enough funding coming in to keep a CDPA program going. There very likely wasn't enough money in CSSA's coffers to fund that project because of the huge amounts needed to fight off Ottawa, McGuinty and Miller.

I really don't get the fuss over the money. Do none of you get out? Bought gas lately? Nobody, especially the guys and gals busting their humps in the CSSA and NFA and whoever, to help us keep and enjoy our guns, live for free. Its costs real money to travel, to stay overnight, to be away from family. SOMEBODY has to pay for that. For free volunteerism can help you enjoy your guns, but it won't alone save them. We're having to build now, what the NRA built a 100 years ago, in the face or real threats.

What just happened in Quebec, will likely happen in Ontario if/when the Ont libs get in again, guaranteed. Gun regulation was the game of the provinces prior to C-17 and C-68, and the SCC-Alberta decision didn't change that. It only affirmed that the feds could play too. The conservatives have already begun the process of devolving responsibility back to the provinces in C-21. If the CPC gets a majority you will be fighting to keep gun control in federal hands, because the conservatives want to give it back to the provinces.
 
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...and in the mean time while all this back and forth is going on here, there are guys and gals shooting an ODPL match at HAHA:D

No politics. No fuss. No pissin' contests... Well that might not be true.
I think part of stage 3 involves a pissing contest... With real piss!:D
 
"Bob - I guess you were out of the country when c68 came. The government doesn't need a reason to bring in legislation that favours its ideological position, not at the federal level."

Yes it does/did, ever hear of the Montreal Massacre? You must have missed that one.

"And given the current ideological bent of the present Liberal party of Canada, you have a high probability of losing your handguns in their next majority. That's not fear-mongering, that's reality."

You have gone from government mandated holster courses to losing our handguns and you say that is not fear mongering! Get Real.

"If the CPC gets a majority you will be fighting to keep gun control in federal hands, because the conservatives want to give it back to the provinces.
"
Wanna bet! I wish they would. I know there is not a dog chance in hell of a provincial Government west of Ontario coming up with the BS the Federal Government and their civil service has laid on us for the past 20 years.

We, in the west, have so little input in federal elections personally I would rather dance with a government that I have some influence over than one I don't. The alternative is sit and bite my nails waiting around for Ontario voters to put a federal Liberal Party in power again....and they will in time.

C 21 is dead as dead and won't make it through parliament for third reading before the next election call.

Take Care

Bob
 
kolyarh said:
Whats ODPL?
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http://www.odplonline.org/


Group of Ontario clubs that run defensive pistol matches... Multi-gun "Tac." matches etc.

Spawned the MDPL... Manitoba DPL..

One... sometimes more than one match a month at various locations...
Kool bunch of cats 'cept for that acrashb guy... He's cold.:cool:
 
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Bob, what I'm trying to tell you is that the federal government doesn't need/didn't need a montreal massacre to outlaw your handguns, or enact c-68. It doesn't even need a reason. All it needs is a majority vote. Period. If Paul Martin had gotten back in, you'd be fighting, right now, to hang onto your handguns, or at least get paid for them. Government isn't obliged to compensate you either.

If handguns begin to fall at the provincial levels in the east, don't get too comfortable with your position out west, you will likely lose them. Remember, nobody "needs" a handgun.

I agree, c-21 won't likely make it and that's a good thing. But that doesn't change the fact that the CPC is looking to turn gun control back to the provinces. They are. How much of it remains to be seen and will depend on who's louder - the provincial premiers or the gun owners. The provinces want that control back.

And not only did I hear of the montreal massacre, I was screaming at the tv listening to young master's student Wendy Cukier and her bud Heidi Rathgen go on about how they were going to go to Ottawa and do something about men with guns. And they did. Fear-mongering indeed.
 
"Bob, what I'm trying to tell you is that the federal government doesn't need/didn't need a montreal massacre to outlaw your handguns, or enact c-68. It doesn't even need a reason. All it needs is a majority vote. Period."

Not sure why you feel a need to tell me this. I wasn't born under a rock and I have studied our political process and on a few occassions actually participated in the process.

"If handguns begin to fall at the provincial levels in the east, don't get too comfortable with your position out west, you will likely lose them. Remember, nobody "needs" a handgun."

To be perfectly frank most of the nonsense we are going through has stemmed from Ontario residents be they elected individuals or federal/provincial civil servants living along the Ottawa Valley or a stones throw from the 401. I can't for the life of me envision a situation where provincial elected officials west of Ontario are going to take much direction from Central Canada on a good day much less be dictated to on a subject they will have sole discretion over. The western Provinces I suggest want to get rid of C 68 as much as the gun owners do. Klein didn't go to the Supreme Court (With the full support of the other three western provinces) so he could upset gun owners. He went there because he felt the feds were in areas of provincial jurisdiction and the legislation was bad legislation.

No we will sit back and watch the crime rate rise in Toronto and Montreal and wait for the Mayor of Toronto to declare he wants to ban people. As it is we are only a federal election or two away from Ontario electing another Liberal Government and if that organizaton stance doesn't change we in the west will lose our legal ownership of handguns anyway. Best we transfer C 68 or it's cousin to the provinces lock, stock, and barrel.

Take Care

Bob
 
(membership in the OHA was a requirement of the CFO, pre-c68)
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Skip, while some clubs required membership, it was not a requirement of the CFO.

To get the OHA insurance, I believe 50% or more members of the club had to belong. Many clubs made membership mandatory to satisfy the CFO insurance requirement.

The CFO did require details of the clubs safety program. The one developed by the OHA was approved, but it wasn't exclusive.

I'm not knocking the old OHA or CSSA. Lord knows if membership had been mandatory, we might have had the funds for more advocacy in the early 90's.
 
Ok, my info was that it was mandatory, but that may have been a club level thing. I do know my statements about the current course issues with the CFO are accurate, as least as much so as the words of an acquaintance of mine (a former ont CFO) who was in those discussions with the CFO. The frustrating point is we keep pissing away opportunities by this constant "I'm the one true god" bickering amongst a relatively small group of people for no good benefit. Judging by my PMs I'm not the only one thoroughly fed up with it.

Antis can take note: No matter how much arguing and name-calling we do over turf wars, we still aren't shooting one another, and its not like we lack the ability... ;) :)
 
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667 said:
'cept for that acrashb guy... He's cold.:cool:
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And he's watching you ;)

If someone is geared up and trained for IDPA or CDP, they're in good shape for shooting with us. And we don't care who you're "affiliated" with as long as you have a good time at the matches.
 
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I finally got thru all this "threads" and the answer became clear....."too few people want to control too many".
I shoot both disciplines and enjoy both. I've been involved in the arguing first hand about CDP and IDPA and can only comment on the what I've been involved with.
First off, our club started with CDP and for some control reasons we switched to IDPA. All started well but the "too few" started the control game and the mudslinging began....it still hasn't stopped. This has caused much grief in our club and has once again taken the FUN out of shooting.
I could add a lot of fuel to this fire in regards to both discipline, but would it solve anything......I think not.
My question to this forum is why all the arguing?? Are we not all on this site because we're "GUN NUTS"!!!
To promote "action shooting " should be our first step, then offer a list of discipline to shoot.

Let's get united or someday the only thing you may be shooting is the S**T
:canadaFlag:
 
Hi Sandman,

I agree in part with what you are saying. The point, I and many of the IDPA members are trying to make is this, we choose to shoot in a discipline that is regulated and organized so that we are able to transfer our qualifications to any IDPA range in the world, many of us do just that. The real problem here as I see it, the average shooter in various disciplines including ours continues to spurt out personal ideas and thought as if they were factual. Point in case, Skip, who in a recent thread informed me that unarguably if CFB Petawawa closed we would lose all our IDPA membership in Ontario. After checking, if the 7 military members from CFB Petawawa were to quit IDPA for whatever reason, I don't think the other 48 IDPA members in this area would even notice. Do you see what I mean, these comments are based on "nothing" but the will to post misinformation on this site, and as I see it, this contributes to 90% of the problem.
250 posts were submitted to this thread before I jumped in to try to explain the facts surrounding the turmoil we are experiencing. It has now been said that I am being condescending to the contributers of this thread, I don't feel the truth is ever condescending. As many know, I often go way out of my way to help IDPA members and those who are interested in IDPA. But if you don't want to hear the truth, don't ask me.
It has been brought up several times that we (IDPA members) get upset because CDP seems to need to use the phrase CDP(IDPA) on all their posts. Why is it necessary to do this, why don't you take pride in your own discipline and distance yourself from IDPA, since it has become very obvious that you do not like or agree with the way IDPA operates. And for god's sake stop getting mad at me for pointing out that CDP and IDPA are not affiliated. We do not advertise IDPA matches and feel the need to tell everyone that the match is very similar to CDP. After all, if I had a yard sale in my driveway I would not be allowed to have a huge Wal-Mart sign hanging on my garage, even if I did steal several of the shopping carts from the Wal-Mart parking lot to use at my sale!
Some contributers are suggesting that there is no need for IDPA because it is geared towards concealed carry, and of course, everyone knows this is nearly impossible in Canada, so my questions is, why is CDP (Canadian Defensive Pistol) shooting this sport at all if this is their way of thinking. Perhaps a sport like Bullseye would be more appropriate for you.
I have offered to answer any questions regarding IDPA and no-one has asked me a single question, this may be because members of CDP know everything, or because they are not interested in shattering their delusional concept of what IDPA is all about, I'm not sure. I don't mean to be short with you Sandman, you just happened to be the recipient of this rant.


Steve SHirlry
IDPA Area Coordinator for Canada
 
sandman said:
I finally got thru all this "threads" and the answer became clear....."too few people want to control too many".
I shoot both disciplines and enjoy both. I've been involved in the arguing first hand about CDP and IDPA and can only comment on the what I've been involved with.
First off, our club started with CDP and for some control reasons we switched to IDPA. All started well but the "too few" started the control game and the mudslinging began....it still hasn't stopped. This has caused much grief in our club and has once again taken the FUN out of shooting.
I could add a lot of fuel to this fire in regards to both discipline, but would it solve anything......I think not.
My question to this forum is why all the arguing?? Are we not all on this site because we're "GUN NUTS"!!!
To promote "action shooting " should be our first step, then offer a list of discipline to shoot.

Let's get united or someday the only thing you may be shooting is the S**T
:canadaFlag:
Click to expand...
Oh, how do I agree!!!
 
SteveS said:
Hi Sandman,

I agree in part with what you are saying. The point, I and many of the IDPA members are trying to make is this, we choose to shoot in a discipline that is regulated and organized so that we are able to transfer our qualifications to any IDPA range in the world, many of us do just that. The real problem here as I see it, the average shooter in various disciplines including ours continues to spurt out personal ideas and thought as if they were factual. Point in case, Skip, who in a recent thread informed me that unarguably if CFB Petawawa closed we would lose all our IDPA membership in Ontario. After checking, if the 7 military members from CFB Petawawa were to quit IDPA for whatever reason, I don't think the other 48 IDPA members in this area would even notice. Do you see what I mean, these comments are based on "nothing" but the will to post misinformation on this site, and as I see it, this contributes to 90% of the problem.
250 posts were submitted to this thread before I jumped in to try to explain the facts surrounding the turmoil we are experiencing. It has now been said that I am being condescending to the contributers of this thread, I don't feel the truth is ever condescending. As many know, I often go way out of my way to help IDPA members and those who are interested in IDPA. But if you don't want to hear the truth, don't ask me.
It has been brought up several times that we (IDPA members) get upset because CDP seems to need to use the phrase CDP(IDPA) on all their posts. Why is it necessary to do this, why don't you take pride in your own discipline and distance yourself from IDPA, since it has become very obvious that you do not like or agree with the way IDPA operates. And for god's sake stop getting mad at me for pointing out that CDP and IDPA are not affiliated. We do not advertise IDPA matches and feel the need to tell everyone that the match is very similar to CDP. After all, if I had a yard sale in my driveway I would not be allowed to have a huge Wal-Mart sign hanging on my garage, even if I did steal several of the shopping carts from the Wal-Mart parking lot to use at my sale!
Some contributers are suggesting that there is no need for IDPA because it is geared towards concealed carry, and of course, everyone knows this is nearly impossible in Canada, so my questions is, why is CDP (Canadian Defensive Pistol) shooting this sport at all if this is their way of thinking. Perhaps a sport like Bullseye would be more appropriate for you.
I have offered to answer any questions regarding IDPA and no-one has asked me a single question, this may be because members of CDP know everything, or because they are not interested in shattering their delusional concept of what IDPA is all about, I'm not sure. I don't mean to be short with you Sandman, you just happened to be the recipient of this rant.


Steve SHirlry
IDPA Area Coordinator for Canada
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Steve,

I said I would not way into this thread again, but you have made a comment in your last post above that concerns me, you said "members of CDP know everything", I surely hope you are not refering to all CDP shooters as a whole, because from our converstaion, PM's and e-mail's you can clearly see that I am not at all like that and I can also speak for the several shooters I have tought that they are not like that. We run regular CDP matches at our club, and always have a good turn out, yet no one even cares of the politics, our only concern is to have fun and so far that is all that has been happening and that is all that will be happneing as long as I over see it at our club. This thread from start to finish has taken the original post way off track, it was an invite to a CDP course at The Shooting Edge, the original post is not even here anymore. All I can suggest is that those of us who shoot CDP do so, and those that shoot IDPA do the same. This back and forth bashing by you very few, and you know who you are, makes us all look like a bunch of disorganized idiots. If CDP shooters want to shoot IDPA, get intouch with Steve Shirly, he is a great guy to deal with and a wealth of knowledge. Those of you interested in CDP can PM me or get intouch with Dave Burke or CSSA. Does having fun have to be this crazy? Lets get over this, move on and have fun now. I think now is a good time to lock this one down!
 
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As I have read all 30 pages of this thread (even commented way back) there is one thing that is overwhelming to me.

The opportunity to unite like-minded shooters. And I don't mean the specific name of the discipline. Afterall, unless I am missing something here, all the of Defensive Pistol (leagues, associations, clubs etc...) be they Provincial, Canadian or International, all shoot basically the same style.

Other than IDPA-Canada having the ability to shoot internationally under that banner, there are very few differences in the actual discipline.

I am not suggesting that we all unite under one banner. What I would suggest is letting like minded qualified shooters compete and have fun with each other, regardless of orginal affiliation. Before some stop reading this post, here me out.

From where I live in SE Ontario, within 4 hours drive, there are several CDP clubs, at least 1 IDPA club and ODPL/A clubs. I would gladly drive to some of these clubs (and do) to shoot fun matches with like minded shooters. I have the CDP course (holster course to some) and would like to experience new clubs and matches. I don't care what your particular ( )DPA is as long as it is fun and safe.

I realize that I can't compete in the US under IDPA because I am not a member. But really, for me and most of my shooting friends this is a non-issue. What I would like is to see is a ( )DPA qualified shooter, be able to participate in building this great action shooting sport in Canada.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but, the coodinators of the various ( )DPA's could recognize each others (holster) courses and allow qualified members of the various ( )DPA's to shoot each others matches and events.
I do realize that some of the finer details would have to be ironed out at the higher levels, but I think that this would be possible... maybe:confused:

From the way I see it, I understand that some organizations will want to hold on to some things that specifically under their name, like IDPA and shooting internationally, but for those of us that just want to shoot for fun with like minded shooters in Canada, there is an incredible opportunity to stand united for our great sport in the face of those that would want to ban handguns and the shooting sports.

Just my thoughts. I will continue to shoot CDP and have fun, inviting others to come try it and join the sport.
 
bluesclues said:
As I have read all 30 pages of this thread (even commented way back) there is one thing that is overwhelming to me.

The opportunity to unite like-minded shooters. And I don't mean the specific name of the discipline. Afterall, unless I am missing something here, all the of Defensive Pistol (leagues, associations, clubs etc...) be they Provincial, Canadian or International, all shoot basically the same style.

Other than IDPA-Canada having the ability to shoot internationally under that banner, there are very few differences in the actual discipline.

I am not suggesting that we all unite under one banner. What I would suggest is letting like minded qualified shooters compete and have fun with each other, regardless of orginal affiliation. Before some stop reading this post, here me out.

From where I live in SE Ontario, within 4 hours drive, there are several CDP clubs, at least 1 IDPA club and ODPL/A clubs. I would gladly drive to some of these clubs (and do) to shoot fun matches with like minded shooters. I have the CDP course (holster course to some) and would like to experience new clubs and matches. I don't care what your particular ( )DPA is as long as it is fun and safe.

I realize that I can't compete in the US under IDPA because I am not a member. But really, for me and most of my shooting friends this is a non-issue. What I would like is to see is a ( )DPA qualified shooter, be able to participate in building this great action shooting sport in Canada.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but, the coodinators of the various ( )DPA's could recognize each others (holster) courses and allow qualified members of the various ( )DPA's to shoot each others matches and events.
I do realize that some of the finer details would have to be ironed out at the higher levels, but I think that this would be possible... maybe:confused:

From the way I see it, I understand that some organizations will want to hold on to some things that specifically under their name, like IDPA and shooting internationally, but for those of us that just want to shoot for fun with like minded shooters in Canada, there is an incredible opportunity to stand united for our great sport in the face of those that would want to ban handguns and the shooting sports.

Just my thoughts. I will continue to shoot CDP and have fun, inviting others to come try it and join the sport.
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Very well put, and to let you know, we in CDP do honour and welcome shooters from IDPA, PPC, IPSC, ODPL and what ever is approved by the CFO in Ontario. This is the only logical way to do things and enjoy this sport.

Again, very well put bluesclues.
 
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