Debate: Gun Vs Bear Spray
- Thread starter Mumbles Marble Mouth
- Start date
Hand Skills
CGN Regular
- Location
- In the 'heartland', southern SK
That's pretty funny, even funnier to consider it's not just the bears recommending 'duck and cover' as a viable plan.
I'm not sure how to respond. I believe in carrying a hi-power rifle. For me it's not always practical or even possible... If you insist on packing a gun, you're really missing out on the beauty within our national parks... or you're acting unlawfully. Either way, that's your choice.
As for predatory bears looking at me as their next meal, first, let's be realistic about how often this actually happens. Life is full of dangers, but records show ~one person gets eaten by a bear every year in North America. The bears responsible for this typically have a very short life expectancy. Is this even worth worrying about? If Browns and Polar Bears are excluded, that statistic shrinks in half. If fatalities where the bear is acting territorial or protective are excluded it's cut in half again. Don't take this the wrong way. Part of the reason that statistic is so low is people who live and work in bear country take the threat seriously. Many carry a gun! I respect bears, generally try not to sneak up on them, don't invite them to my camp (food/garbage). I'm far more likely to get struck by lightening than eaten by a bear.
However, It's good to have a plan. For example, when being circled by a bear one can smell and hear but cannot see. This has happened to me on two occasions. Was I being stalked, or was the bear just curious about what I was? It's scary because, until it's over, one doesn't know... Having a plan can resolve some of the fear (or at least provide a point of conversation instead of simply messing one's pants) But other times things happen so quickly, that a plan needs rehearsal to have any possibility of execution.
In short, I don't have any direct experience with a bear who wants to eat me. Thus far I've managed to convince them they'll have a really bad time, and should seek smaller weaker things with less potential to injure them. If all else fails, the contingency is often a big stick for them to chew on and a pointy knife for the carotid. I know how bad of a plan this is - I've seen evidence of 3" saplings bitten clean through by an angry Griz in a trap. Yes, a big boar could swat me like a fly. Given the risk assessment however, that is often enough for me to feel safe in enjoying the great outdoors. A good part of that risk assessment is understanding behaviour. Though it would give me great honour to kill a bear with a knife, I do my best to first avoid and secondly prevent that kind of a situation. For example you will not find me trecking through the alpine in the spring alone with but a knife and a stick... There are hungry bears up there. That's just common sense. If not, it certainly falls in the 'behaviour' category, does it not?
Personally I don't carry bear spray unless I'm required to do so. I prefer things that go bang, especially if the propel a 180gr partition at Mach 2 or better.
I'm not sure how to respond. I believe in carrying a hi-power rifle. For me it's not always practical or even possible... If you insist on packing a gun, you're really missing out on the beauty within our national parks... or you're acting unlawfully. Either way, that's your choice.
As for predatory bears looking at me as their next meal, first, let's be realistic about how often this actually happens. Life is full of dangers, but records show ~one person gets eaten by a bear every year in North America. The bears responsible for this typically have a very short life expectancy. Is this even worth worrying about? If Browns and Polar Bears are excluded, that statistic shrinks in half. If fatalities where the bear is acting territorial or protective are excluded it's cut in half again. Don't take this the wrong way. Part of the reason that statistic is so low is people who live and work in bear country take the threat seriously. Many carry a gun! I respect bears, generally try not to sneak up on them, don't invite them to my camp (food/garbage). I'm far more likely to get struck by lightening than eaten by a bear.
However, It's good to have a plan. For example, when being circled by a bear one can smell and hear but cannot see. This has happened to me on two occasions. Was I being stalked, or was the bear just curious about what I was? It's scary because, until it's over, one doesn't know... Having a plan can resolve some of the fear (or at least provide a point of conversation instead of simply messing one's pants) But other times things happen so quickly, that a plan needs rehearsal to have any possibility of execution.
In short, I don't have any direct experience with a bear who wants to eat me. Thus far I've managed to convince them they'll have a really bad time, and should seek smaller weaker things with less potential to injure them. If all else fails, the contingency is often a big stick for them to chew on and a pointy knife for the carotid. I know how bad of a plan this is - I've seen evidence of 3" saplings bitten clean through by an angry Griz in a trap. Yes, a big boar could swat me like a fly. Given the risk assessment however, that is often enough for me to feel safe in enjoying the great outdoors. A good part of that risk assessment is understanding behaviour. Though it would give me great honour to kill a bear with a knife, I do my best to first avoid and secondly prevent that kind of a situation. For example you will not find me trecking through the alpine in the spring alone with but a knife and a stick... There are hungry bears up there. That's just common sense. If not, it certainly falls in the 'behaviour' category, does it not?
Personally I don't carry bear spray unless I'm required to do so. I prefer things that go bang, especially if the propel a 180gr partition at Mach 2 or better.
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
Dang lucky fer ye in that encounter. I wouldn't discount the .303 for bonking a big bear, but I wouldn't be coming round a blind spot in that area with a slung rifle.
Bear spray works ok on a pissed-off dog, but for a pissed-off bear? Not a fookin' hope. In that scenario ye might as well spray the stuff over yourself and yell "Thanks Chef Ramsay!"
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I have lived and worked in or around the bush most of my life , and had some very close calls with both Grizzly and Black Bear and I have no use for trusting bear spray, I carry a short barreled 12 Gauge Pump , loaded up with 3 inch slugs.
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- Location
- Steel Town and The Peg
Dang lucky fer ye in that encounter. I wouldn't discount the .303 for bonking a big bear, but I wouldn't be coming round a blind spot in that area with a slung rifle.
Bear spray works ok on a pissed-off dog, but for a pissed-off bear? Not a fookin' hope. In that scenario ye might as well spray the stuff over yourself and yell "Thanks Chef Ramsay!"
I was measuring stream current, knee high in water wearing a pair of hip wadders... got caught completely off guard. After that day, I carried an 870 Marine Magnum. Unless you face a large bear in the wild, you cannot possibly appreciate what fear feels like and how utterly ridiculous it is to think that bear spray is adequate for anything larger than a wiley coyote or maybe a badger! lol
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
Got Juice?
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Peoples Republik of Kanukkistan
Both have their benefits. Both have their drawbacks. When in the back country, I carry both. Certain situations may favor the deployment of one over the other.
WOW didn't mean to touch a nerve with my comment but seeing as I have I'll respond.
Little background on me I don't spend time hiking in parks never have never will why because I can't carry a firearm in them.
I carried handguns on my ATC permit in remote wilderness areas of BC & Alberta for 7 years had 6 different handguns on my permit at one time from 10mm's to 454 Casull's my defense long guns while I was working in the bush were at first a 18.5" barreled Rem 870 12 gauge with Brennekke slugs next was a Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 loaded with 350gr - 550gr bullets I found the 45-70 limiting while working during hunting seasons because I also hunted with it when I was out working so started carrying a shortened to 21" barreled Rem 700 LSS in 375RUM loaded with 260gr Accubonds @ 3020fps and defense 350gr @ 2450fps.
I live and worked my entire life in BC the province that has 1/2 of Canada's black bear population I have had a multitude of solo encounters with bears including grizzlies I do not go into the bush without a firearm after letting my last ATC expire my latest carry guns while hiking/scouting are my 14" barreled 28.5" overall length T/C Contender carbines in 375JDJ and 45-70.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Looking at the population as a whole, the possibility of a predatory bear attack is rare, but if you are one of the people who live in circumstances where a predatory bear attack is possible, that dynamic changes. We can without reservation agree that people who never leave an urban environment have no chance of suffering a bear inflicted injury, but there is at least a small possibility, for those living in the suburbs that border bear habitat, that a bear problem might occur. Families who go into bear habitat for day trips, have more exposure than suburbanites, while they are there, but not much more. Folks who camp in bear habitat have greater exposure than the day trippers since they are there overnight, and if care is not taken to bear proof the camp, nocturnal visits are as sure as baiting. Small children are particularly vulnerable, and must be watched vigilantly at all times. Hunters who have downed a big game are at risk in some areas, since they have provided both a food source, and a scent that attracts bears. People who actually live and work in bear habitat have the greatest exposure to bear problems.
What is surprising to many people is that black bears injure and kill more people than all of the big bears combined. Exposure is the reason, since black bear habitat is much greater than the habitat of big bears, and in many cases is less remote. Much human activity and habitation borders on or is within black bear habitat. If you are attacked by a black bear, it is almost always a predatory attack; what's the saying? Black bears don't attack, they feed. Grizzlies have a large personal space, so they get grouchy with human encroachment from distances that might not be recognized as encroaching. A bear of any species that is hungry and unable to find food or due to an injury or age is unable to feed itself poses a unique danger; and IMHO, these guys aren't as uncommon as we might hope. All bears get old, and all bears suffer injuries of varying severity throughout their lifetime. Regardless of the initial reason for a bear attack, whether a personal space issue, defense of a food cache, or defense of their young, once initiated, any attack can become predatory, so its essential that the bear is prevented from making physical contact. Once physical contact is made, your chances of survival drop expediently. If the bear can't touch you, he can't hurt you.
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As long as I'm allowed to carry a rifle in the field, this kind of debate means little to me. If someone believes it is safe to enjoy life in the bear country without the burden of carrying firearm(knowingly), that is fine. I rarely give any sympathy to those who got mauled or eaten by bears if they were not prepared. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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Hand Skills
CGN Regular
- Location
- In the 'heartland', southern SK
No sir, you are good. I'm pretty new to posting on forums, it appears my 'tone' could use some work. I respect both your experience and your position, thank you for clarifying.
Most of the people I consider backcountry experts have put down more than one bear out of necessity. I'm sure we agree that on a long enough timeline it's not a question of if, it's a question of when...
Hand Skills
CGN Regular
- Location
- In the 'heartland', southern SK
Great post Boomer, as usual! Though our statistics differ somewhat (mine were fatalities only), it's logically impossible to argue with anything you say, both in this context and generally from what I have seen.
I don't like spray because it can't be used to prevent an attack. If I'm in a position to use bear spray, from my point of view that bear has already attacked... It's that simple. I carry something that goes bang. I know this can prevent an attack because I have seen it work. If it doesn't work, I better have a plain to kill the bear, because whether it wants to eat me or not, I'm probably not making it home unless I do so expediently.
The nice thing about a gun is we can use it to kill the bear if the bang doesn't work. Like two tools in one.
My point in the post you quoted was that there is a lot more that goes into preventing an attack when considering Bear Spray vs A Gun. Specifically seasonally. My experience has been it's pretty hard to get a bear OUT of a berry patch in the fall. If food is plentiful, risk is not only dependent upon exposure... Behaviour cannot be overstated because the opposite is also true; there are many examples of folks who have gotten into trouble while carrying BOTH spray and a gun.
I think it's important to prevent bear attacks wherever possible, and resolve them permanently when all else fails. If not, we are only contributing to the same kind of problem that northern Europe has with Wolves. Citizens who have been disarmed, and wolves who do not fear men.
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Fishing guide in Alaska did NOT use bear spray. Gave me a 12ga shotgun and told me to shoot for the nose. Plenty of bear sign around but none spotted. With the foliage being what it was it would have been a close encounter for sure...hence the shotgun. But there were 3006 rifles in the boat as well. no bear spray to be found.
btw do the stats factor in familiarity with firearms on the human side? some idiots I have encountered have little knowledge or experience with the firearms they carry to the field, but they could talk the bear to death!
one of the largest grizzlies ever taken was by a guy that took a 3030 with him to go chop wood. I doubt bear spray would have ended well with him.
you do know out west how you can tell if there are bears about....find a pile of scat...if there are remnants of goretex fabric in it then there are bears and 'tree huggers' about.
btw do the stats factor in familiarity with firearms on the human side? some idiots I have encountered have little knowledge or experience with the firearms they carry to the field, but they could talk the bear to death!
one of the largest grizzlies ever taken was by a guy that took a 3030 with him to go chop wood. I doubt bear spray would have ended well with him.
you do know out west how you can tell if there are bears about....find a pile of scat...if there are remnants of goretex fabric in it then there are bears and 'tree huggers' about.
sir_springer
Regular
- Location
- East Kootenays
I've had one encounter with a griz, at about 40 yards. Short version, he took a few steps toward me in that head down swagger male grizzlies are noted for. I slowly backed away around a corner in the road and out of sight. Good enough for him, and he left. If he had come around the corner, it was going to be open season. I left my bear spray on the back seat of the truck a half hour earlier. And I walked past a pile of his crap on the road. My mistake, but a happy ending, that nevertheless left me a tad bit more jittery when I'm out there.
First rule with a griz - do NOT act threatening!!! Unless the game is already on....
60% of black bear attacks are predatory, looking for chow. Do NOT play dead with a black bear, you will end up as his dinner! Such attacks by grizzlies are much more rare. Their attacks are almost always defensive, and usually end when they're satisfied the threat is over.
Black bears that don't run away, but start walking toward you - that's aggression! You're being sized up for the menu!
The two fellows killed while dressing an elk in 1995 mentioned here - that was up in Revelstoke country. I talked to an x-RCMP friend, Search and Rescue, who was involved in the recovery. The crime scene was about as grim as it possibly gets. Apparently their rifles were leaned up against a tree too far away. Lesson here: One works on the game down, the other plays guard! Rifle shots are increasingly becoming a dinner bell for grizzlies, many of which move out of parks for just this reason.
Be completely aware that calling game, especially elk - especially during bow season, when armed only with pointed sticks - can be quite effective in also calling in grizzlies and cougars.
Getting in that one, or if one is lucky, two shots during a charge is no small feat. How many actually practice for that? And then imagine doing it while the adrenaline is pumping, the heart is pounding in one's ears, and every instinct is telling one to run like hell! Everything I've read says bear spray is the best defense in such a moment. I don't know what the reality is, but I keep it on my hip now just in case.
Grizzlies are now protected in BC, and God knows chance encounters are only going to increase in the coming years. Thing is, these encounters are now increasingly happening close to town here in Cranbrook.
The old adage applies: Talk is cheap, it takes real money to buy good whiskey. Or as the old proverb puts it: Sh*t happens! Most important thing when out there in bear country is head on a swivel and pay attention to what's going on around you!
FWIW
First rule with a griz - do NOT act threatening!!! Unless the game is already on....
60% of black bear attacks are predatory, looking for chow. Do NOT play dead with a black bear, you will end up as his dinner! Such attacks by grizzlies are much more rare. Their attacks are almost always defensive, and usually end when they're satisfied the threat is over.
Black bears that don't run away, but start walking toward you - that's aggression! You're being sized up for the menu!
The two fellows killed while dressing an elk in 1995 mentioned here - that was up in Revelstoke country. I talked to an x-RCMP friend, Search and Rescue, who was involved in the recovery. The crime scene was about as grim as it possibly gets. Apparently their rifles were leaned up against a tree too far away. Lesson here: One works on the game down, the other plays guard! Rifle shots are increasingly becoming a dinner bell for grizzlies, many of which move out of parks for just this reason.
Be completely aware that calling game, especially elk - especially during bow season, when armed only with pointed sticks - can be quite effective in also calling in grizzlies and cougars.
Getting in that one, or if one is lucky, two shots during a charge is no small feat. How many actually practice for that? And then imagine doing it while the adrenaline is pumping, the heart is pounding in one's ears, and every instinct is telling one to run like hell! Everything I've read says bear spray is the best defense in such a moment. I don't know what the reality is, but I keep it on my hip now just in case.
Grizzlies are now protected in BC, and God knows chance encounters are only going to increase in the coming years. Thing is, these encounters are now increasingly happening close to town here in Cranbrook.
The old adage applies: Talk is cheap, it takes real money to buy good whiskey. Or as the old proverb puts it: Sh*t happens! Most important thing when out there in bear country is head on a swivel and pay attention to what's going on around you!
FWIW
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JACKSMYDOG
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Haldimand County, Ontario
I can't recall exactly where I read it, but "no one has ever been killed by a Black Bear after deploying Bear Spray" was the statement. It was explained to me that Black Bears generally attack only to feed, and if you can get spray in it's nose/mouth/face it will not want to feed, therefore break off the attack. In theory it does make sense, providing the attack is predatory.
For more than 20 years, I spend 40-50 nights each year tenting in Black Bear country, not hunting. A defensive long gun is way too much space/weight/hassle for the trips I take (paddle/portage). When on land generally I am in portage mode, and making lots of noise. I try to ensure I have a paddle in one hand for all land transport, I always have a knife on my belt, and bear spray in a holster. Fortunately I have never run into a bear on trail, but have seen lots of fresh tracks and feces. At camp I use an airtight bear barrel, and diligent with my food, cooking, and dishes in the barrel, and hung away from camp as soon as practical. I make lots of noise when I'm pre-occupied, and extremely quiet and paying attention when not busy.
Of course non-predatory attacks, such as defending cubs or defending food, is a different thing. Without the pretense of eating you, the bear spray defense theory loses some steam. Other species (Grizzly, Brown and Polar) are also a different discussion, and bear spray is likely useless.
For more than 20 years, I spend 40-50 nights each year tenting in Black Bear country, not hunting. A defensive long gun is way too much space/weight/hassle for the trips I take (paddle/portage). When on land generally I am in portage mode, and making lots of noise. I try to ensure I have a paddle in one hand for all land transport, I always have a knife on my belt, and bear spray in a holster. Fortunately I have never run into a bear on trail, but have seen lots of fresh tracks and feces. At camp I use an airtight bear barrel, and diligent with my food, cooking, and dishes in the barrel, and hung away from camp as soon as practical. I make lots of noise when I'm pre-occupied, and extremely quiet and paying attention when not busy.
Of course non-predatory attacks, such as defending cubs or defending food, is a different thing. Without the pretense of eating you, the bear spray defense theory loses some steam. Other species (Grizzly, Brown and Polar) are also a different discussion, and bear spray is likely useless.
sir_springer
Regular
- Location
- East Kootenays
Watching a documentary on the Arctic. Out and about in one of those big Snow Cats or whatever they're called. Stopped to watch a big male polar bear. It finally got too curious, stood up and started leaning on the side of the bus. Driver had enough of that, and reached out with a can of bear spray and let him have it! That bear took off like a scared rabbit! Went about 100 yards, stopped to bury his head in arms, and then have a good pout as he watched the big rig drive on.
Definitely worked on that one!
Definitely worked on that one!
