Any ballistic apps that really work out there?
- Thread starter MartyK2500
- Start date
If you look at how PRS courses are laid out wind reading is not going to be that important for about 50% of the stages (unless you are in hurricane that is). Why do I say this? A lot of the targets are 500 yards and in and are generously sized. I have not seen the Meaford COF but if it is similar to most other COFs (and I have read a lot of COFs) targets are 2.5+ MOA for most positional stages and they are of the closer variety. If the kid had decent fundamentals and was able to do well on the positional stages he would do well compared to someone who only shot prone but had great dope to 1,000+.
Maybe it was beginners luck or maybe just a god given talent but he was doing something right that day.
The larger target sizes in PRS will help if your data isn't 100% correct as a hit is a hit (unlike f-class) but poor performance on barricade style stages will sink you.
So just to be clear, you are telling us that you, a "seasoned shooter" and 90 other guys were beat by this kid because of his Kestrel 5700?
And not because he is a talented shooter?
Not at all thickness... and you are attempting to put words in my mouth, which I don't appreciate.
I said he has no understanding of the technicals, meaning he cannot determine wind or elevation offsets on his own and that he relied entirely upon the Kestrel for those values and that as a result of those Kestrel values and no prior wind doping experience, he out shot 90 other guys who almost certainly had considerably more shooting experience than him.
It's a testament to the influence a Kestrel has on someone's shooting scores, not an attempt to discredit the kids trigger pulling which he obviously did well, but would have been moot without good windage and elevation information.
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I'm really not getting your drift here. You seem to think that "having an understanding of the technicals" somehow makes a person more likely to get hits in a PRS match? Here's how every PRS stage/match generally works. The COF tells you which targets to shoot at, in what order and at what distance they are. Armed with that information, you use whatever means you have to get your elevation and wind adjustments for those different distances. Whether you get you elevation dope from a Kestrel, a ballistic app, range cards you made ahead of time or divine intervention makes no difference. Similarly, whether you get your wind call from holding your kestrel into the wind and using the values it gives you(which I'll note are values specific to the wind at the shooter), using a different (or non-AB) wind meter, reading mirage and veg movement, throwing chalk in the air or asking the gods for their call, makes no difference either. You would then write these down on something, an arm board, Sidewinder, white tape on your hand, etc and use these values when the buzzer goes to engage the different targets, hopefully in the correct order.
Nowadays, pretty much every ballistic app (assuming good data is inputted) will give you good dope out to where your bullet goes transonic without needing any truing. At least that's been my experience with both Ballistic AE and a Kestrel with AB.
So I'm not sure what your argument is, you should get a higher score if you go out and manually gather/verify all your dope? PRS is about shooting skill, not your ability to gather dope beforehand. You need good dope to do well, that goes without saying but how you get it is your business. It doesn't matter if you read it off range cards, an iPhone app or a Kestrel. All you're really doing is making your best "educated" guess at what the wind is actually doing and applying that value to some kind of dope chart to get a wind hold. Hopefully you hit and if you miss, hopefully you spot your miss and can correct. On day 1 at Meaford, the wind was almost never doing the same thing for 30 seconds and was pretty much never doing the same thing at the target as it was at the shooter (source: I was there).
I'm curious, what method were you using to call the wind?
I think the fact that you are an experienced shooter makes your interpretation of events even sadder. It is not the gear that takes home the match it is the shooter. I would guess that close to 95% of the shooters at the match were running some type of ballistic calculator at the match. If they were running dope cards they probably trued up their ballistic calculator and then made those cards at home.
PRS is not F-class where the targets are always at 100M/Y intervals - I am not going to go out and get DOPE for a 327 yard shot or a 612 yard shot or a 843 yard shot, etc. I am going to make sure my AB is working (which it wasnt for my first 2 matches this year - and that is on me) and then use it as a tool in my tool kit. The kestrel is great at determining the wind at your location (which is very important) but it is not going to make you from a poor shooter to a pro. Gear does not make you a better shooter PERIOD.
Also, I think saying that Meaford was chock full of experienced shooters is a bit off. It is the only sanctioned PRS match in Canada and there are lots of folks where it is probably their first or only match they get to shoot a year.
Very true.
A great phone app is AB - mine is a couple years old now but I think it runs about 30 bucks.
I have used it across 4 guns and 3 cartridges and it is pretty much spot on as long as you put in good data. I use a kestrel 4500 for density altitude and temp (I always thought that DA did all of it but it give me a slightly different number if I include both). Good chrono numbers are you are GTG.
Funny...
It's a darn good thing the kid didn't know any of this when he relied entirely upon his father's Kestrel to measure wind speed at only the firing position and beat 90 other shooters at Meaford.
We probably shouldn't tell him that he shouldn't have.
You got beat - it happens. You can take that in many ways - you are not taking it well.
Ragging on a 19 year old kid is kind of unbecoming - digging in your heels on this is only making it worse
I expect next year you will have a Kestrel and win... Not just Meaford but an experienced shooter like you combined with the God Kestrel will probably sweep the whole series.
Entertaining none the less!
At least, in this debate/discussion, I get to see what everyone is running within their replies.
If budget was allowing, Kestrel 5700AB seems like the way to go, you can win easily with them
Joking of course.
I did look at info and reviews available for the kestrel, very nice.
On top of being a relevant ballistic calculation tool, battery life and weather resistance is superb compared to an I-phone.
My verdict so far, would be buy the kestrel 5700AB once monies allow for it, run laminated range cards using JBM ballistics data on PC in the meantime.
x2 on BallisticAE. Careful inputs produce good data. Its uncommon for the data to need 'truing', obviously depending on the projectile.
Will retry ballistic AE later tonight.
I have the perfect thing to test it, actual drops at 600-700-800M with actual recorded weather and velocity.
So far only JBM ballistics recreated everything very closely.
From my understanding ballistic AE use JBM, I may have got one input wront i'll double check.
Edit : got all my range cards on a drop box so I went to consult during lunch break and input once again in Ballistic AE, once again 100-400M spot on, 500 it starts to go off quite a bit.
800 is off by more than a full mil.
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Marty, there's gotta be a wrong input somewhere in there. You shoot a .308, right? I'm assuming you're still above transonic (1340fps) at 800m? For a ballistics program to be a full mil off means there's some piece of data that was input incorrectly, somewhere. Have you chronied your load lately? Verified the range distances with a lrf?
Entertaining none the less!
At least, in this debate/discussion, I get to see what everyone is running within their replies.
If budget was allowing, Kestrel 5700AB seems like the way to go, you can win easily with them
Joking of course.
I did look at info and reviews available for the kestrel, very nice.
On top of being a relevant ballistic calculation tool, battery life and weather resistance is superb compared to an I-phone.
My verdict so far, would be buy the kestrel 5700AB once monies allow for it, run laminated range cards using JBM ballistics data on PC in the meantime.
Lots of talk here regarding the Kestel 5700 Elite AB. One model sold in Canada is the Kestrel 5700 Elite AB, the other is the Kestel 5700 Elite AB with LiNK. The AB software appears to be what I need. Can current users or vendors tell me what the advantage is with the addition of LiNK? There is a significant price difference between the two models. I am aiming (pun intended) to figure out whether the upcharge for LiNK is worth it.
That very evening, I had the labradar next to me and confirmed my speed, as I was using strelok and past 500M nothing was working anymore.
Also had my Kestrel 5000 and documented all conditions, and ranges we're true as it's a military range.
Here we're my actual conditions with live labradar chrono going on:
72F
74% humidity
29.58 inHG
Labradar avg : 2700 spot on (not 2699 or 2701, some fluke)
Rifle was zero'ed at 92M (100yds)
Projectile was .308 175 SMK
Sight height : 2.320''
My actual drops that evening we're 6.4mils at 700M and 8.1mils at 800M.
Just checked my printed range cards, and on my 29.50inHG card and 70F column, my printed drops using JBM are 6.3 mils at 700M and 8.0mils at 800M.
I also chrono my load regularly, in every conditions possible to have an idea how it reacts with temperature changes.
This summer my labradar was always with me, and think my high velocities we're around 2705 FPS in the 95F range of temperature.
That varget powder is quite insensitive.
Shelldrake
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Right behind you,,
The kestrel with LiNK will allow you to wirelessly link your Kestrel with a compatible device, like an iphone or android.
You then use your linked device to run and view the AB application, with the data the Kestrel is sending it.
The advantage is that you can remotely use the real-time wind and weather information from the Kestral.
Ideally you would have the Kestral mounted up on a wind vane, on top of a tripod or other type of pole.
The Kestral will swing with the wind, sending wind direction and other readings direct to your device.
Your firing solution is constantly being updated and presented to you, as you face towards your target or while you are in your shooting position.
You also have the advantage of a larger screen to view and use the AB application, as most devices will have a larger screen than the Kestrel.
If the Kestrel isn't remotely positioned to move with the wind (gives constant wind direction), then there isn't much advantage to the LiNK.
You can also link it to a compatible laser rangefinder,, Just lase each target and you get a firing solution for each.
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Actually no, was on my to do list after my ultimatum build was over and ready, and between tearing down my ultimatum build and going back to savage, this task got lost in the noise.
When I got my first basic rifle, I went with the razor 4.5-27x56 gen ll, since it had a track record of properly tracking with nice turrets.
But I shouldn't take this for granted anyways.
When I do input data, on a PC, in JBM ballistics, it does make sense with real life though. It's these I-phone apps that can't seem to give me real life data.
