Canada's WWII-era pistols dangerously unreliable - News Article 10/12/ '18

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Well I think the BHP (properly maintained) is a very fine pistol and anyone that thinks we need a sidearm with greater capacity than the BHP has been mislead by guns and ammo and may have forgotten the purpose of a sidearm and why rifles and crew served weapons are issued.

Disagree about higher capacity being mislead.

Higher capacity is super important, from advances in 9mm ammo to advances in (enemy) body armor. 10 rounds doesn't cut it in a pistol known for jamming.

Crew served weapons are what does the killing. Rifles are for self-defense of machineguns and crew weapons in a conventional war context.

I have a new browning high power (first user) that I meticulously care for. 10 rounds in each magazine and the gun still jams often on the range. If I had a stoppage with my C8 in a gunfight I'd seriously consider trying to clear it and use it than switching to my browning.

We need a new pistol. Instead of playing the 10-15 year procurement game we should buy glock 17s or 19s and be done with it.
 
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So, ALL Inglis HPs don't/won't work with even new mags ..... ? Really? That's quite a bold statement backed up by ..... ?

Personal experience.

Oh, I forget - the weight factor. Didn't seem to bother the US soldiers who used it in the sand box because - wait for it - it worked when the 5.56 failed.

Weight is a huge deal for combat soldiers. We're weighted down with #### more than ever. Ounces equal pounds and one pound is a 30 round 5.56 magazine.
 
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Disagree about higher capacity being mislead.

Higher capacity is super important, from advances in 9mm ammo to advances in (enemy) body armor. 10 rounds doesn't cut it in a pistol known for jamming.

Crew served weapons are what does the killing. Rifles are for self-defense of machineguns and crew weapons in a conventional war context.

I have a new browning high power (first user) that I meticulously care for. 10 rounds in each magazine and the gun still jams often on the range. If I had a stoppage with my C8 in a gunfight I'd seriously consider trying to clear it and use it than switching to my browning.

We need a new pistol. Instead of playing the 10-15 year procurement game we should buy glock 17s or 19s and be done with it.

I love my vintage 1T series BHP but I completely agree with your assessment about needing a replacement pistol for our troops.

I had to go through several magazines before I finally ended up with a half dozen that are 100% reliable. Have your weapons techs checked your pistol to find the cause of the malfunctions.

The recoil spring in BHP pistols is much stronger than it needs to be. It could just be the ammo you're being issued is weaker than the pistol was meant to shoot. Are you still being issued those 64 round pressboard paper boxes??? I opened an old crate I had picked up 35 years ago this summer. The dates on the cartons and crate are 01/64. That stuff is much hotter than some of the recent made surplus I was given to try out. I have a smaller gauge spring in my BHP, which I installed from WOLF SPRINGS so I could run the cheap white box and AE 9mm. The latest surplus came from a friend who brought me a couple of boxes and it was US issue. Good stuff and my pistol shot it well. It's purpose built for their M9 service pistols which he complains bitterly about for having the issues you describe. Most of the pistols he gets to shoot are very well used and worn.

When I first purchased my BHP, back in the mid sixties there were literally mountains of 9mm surplus ammo available. It was even considered to be cheap back then. The thing is, much of it was from offshore, corrosive primed or that black stained Axis 9x19, intended for the axis submachine guns. I saw more than one bulged barrel from that stuff and more than one extractor ripped out of P38s and P08s. Nasty stuff but people still shot a lot of it through the BHPs. My old girl cost me $90US at Ed Karrer's Gunatorium, new in its blue box with white liner and a spare magazine. Neither of those mags fed properly.

Ed Karrer was a very decent fellow and told me to take the pistol "out back of the shop" and test the feeding. He also gave me a cardboard box full of new in brown wax paper magazines, all stamped with the JI logo. After a couple of hundred rounds and 25 or so magazines I found six that fed the Canadian surplus ammo without a malfunction.

Ed took a look and was surprised I was finding so many of the mags giving issues. He disassembled the pistol and polished the feed ramp, which looked OK to me.

When I got back home and got all the paperwork done, very easy back then, I took it to the back 40 to shoot a bunch of the ammo I had picked up in the Army and Nave store in Vancouver. The darn thing was stove piping. This was commercial non military issue ammo. I didn't want to fool around with corrosive in that new pistol. There never was a decal on mine.

I took it to Les Viel, long deceased that was a Depot REME along with his old bud, Tiny Tim Ryan. They both said to take a couple of loops off the recoil spring. Lots of parts available back then for these pistols. So I did as they suggested and all was well. Around 7-8 years ago that spring's stub end irritated me so I picked up a replacement from Wolf.

That's the story behind my pistol but even though it's a fairly early number, it had a few issues that needed to be worked out, straight out of the box.

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I find it interesting that my experience with both commercial and Inglis HPs is so different from that of others.

I won my first HP Bar Sto barrel as a prize. When I ordered another for my back up, I asked Irv Stone about spring replacement which was all the rage at the time. Answer - "If it works, leave it alone. John Browning knew what he was doing." I do recall that some shot 100 gr bullets (and still made Minor) but they had to go to softer recoil and hammer springs.

I also recall that they needed a firm grip to function properly, being more sensitive to recoil impulse than the 1911. I sold mine off to a lady shooter who had repeated malfunctions. We met at the range and I fired off several mags successfully with her ammo. I even held it with thumb and middle finger and it functioned every time.

I also recall that HP mags did not like being dropped with more than a couple of rds remaining as this forced the top rd out of the mag lips in a manner not conducive to longevity. They also required a good 'bumper pad' as did other hi cap magazines.

Dave Westerhout of South Africa won the World IPSC Champs shooting against the US hot shots using the .45 1911. Because of the point spread between Major and Minor calibres, he learned to shoot on the move, starting at 25m and advancing to 7m, firing and reloading as he went. Ammo was very expensive in SA, so in practice every rd had to count.

The HP continues to highly regarded around the world so you have to wonder about the dissatisfaction with our Inglis HPs.
 
Dont get too fussed Sharps 74 —- the guys need their ‘jammy’ pieces of kit .... let them have the Glock —- it wont harm and then sit back and wait a few years for the same guys to start saying ‘hey - how come we have to use this plastic POS — why cant we have those combat proof all forged steel BHP’s we used to have —- what was wrong with them!!!’

:) this is a recurring theme in the US and probably 40% (a WAG) of the new guys want the ‘1911’ back again :). The guys in procurement didnt fall off a turnip truck and you can be sure they have files and files (going back 70+ years!) on any issues that have been experienced with the BHP ... they are well aware of what the ‘real’ and ‘imagined’ problems are and will respond accordingly and as necessary.
 
Wow, so much insight about the old and dated Browning . I bet the next enemy combatant shot with one could very well be the first one ever shot. The old soldier/war horse BHP should be retired from service it has served Canadian troops well but the day is long past for it on todays, let alone some future, battlefield. Now with that said I expect we will be seeing the centenary of the BHP in CF service the way we LOVE to drag procurement out, study things to death, consult "stakeholders" (who funny enough never seem to be the end users) and generally overspend instead of just placing the order and buying a pistol.
 
Dont get too fussed Sharps 74 —- the guys need their ‘jammy’ pieces of kit .... let them have the Glock —- it wont harm and then sit back and wait a few years for the same guys to start saying ‘hey - how come we have to use this plastic POS — why cant we have those combat proof all forged steel BHP’s we used to have —- what was wrong with them!!!’

:) this is a recurring theme in the US and probably 40% (a WAG) of the new guys want the ‘1911’ back again :). The guys in procurement didnt fall off a turnip truck and you can be sure they have files and files (going back 70+ years!) on any issues that have been experienced with the BHP ... they are well aware of what the ‘real’ and ‘imagined’ problems are and will respond accordingly and as necessary.

Hahaha. The fudds that want a 1911 back need a special helmet at all times. The only people that would want "the proven forged" all metal beer opener either never used it, or don't know what they are talking about. The high power is outdated and compared to the modern polymer offerings and has zero benefits over any of the current offerings.

And no i dont care what you think of your tarted up hi power and how well it shoots or feels in your hands(which would still choke under conditions that wouldn't faze a glock or a usp)
 
I forgot to add .... IIRC Dave Westerhout added a Bomar rib to his HP as it was the only way he could get adjustable sights. Even with the added weight it functioned flawlessly with SA ball ammo.

There are many who have cursed the 1911 over the years, mostly people with little to no experience with it. When I sold my HPs, I bought a Series '70 Gold Cup and pounded it mercilessly with IPSC Major loads. It ran like a champ and saved me from paying a learning 'smith to lower and flare the ejection port, tune the trigger (a dark art at the time) and install useable sights.

Later I added a Series '70 Gov't Model and had it tarted out with ambi safeties, flared/lowered ejection port, tuned long trigger, bevelled mag well and adjustable sights. I would have saved money if I had just bought another Gold Cup. It's slide to frame fit left something to be desired, but it worked and I pounded it. I sold it and as far as I know, it soldiered on for many years.

New shooters were buying beater 1911s from Alan Lever for $250 bucks to get in the game. Given good mags (the GI mags were garbage), these war horses would group into 6" at 25 yds, more than adequate for the game in the era (now shooters expect 2" groups from quality guns) but would occasionally "stove pipe" due to the GI ejection port, worn extractors and ejectors. These parts were easily and cheaply replaced. An hours work with a Dremel took care of the ejection port.

I won the BCRA Service Pistol match one year shooting an Inglis HP I was issued 15 minutes before firing it. I had just enough time to find a couple of functioning mags with well polished contact areas where the trigger shoe engaged the mag. The trigger pull was less than optimal and my first 5 sighters showed that in order to hit centre, a 1 o'clock hold on the edge of the black was necessary.

My IPSC pals (it was still "Combat Pistol Shooting" in those days, ala Jeff Cooper) were delighted and they were happy to carry me in the chair as per BCRA/DCRA tradition.
 
we used to have in the CF a ‘high capacity 9mm’ — was damned accurate too and could keep every round in the center of a fig 11 target easily at 100m .... you could pour a shovel full of sand on it and dunk it in a river and it would run great could even fire it submerged if you really wanted to — had a great zoomy pistol grip that fit anyones hands, large safety that was quick to employ and even the girls could manage it nicely ... iirc we called it the smg. Sadly got replaced when they decided that the C7 could do everything better.
 
we used to have in the CF a ‘high capacity 9mm’ — was damned accurate too and could keep every round in the center of a fig 11 target easily at 100m .... you could pour a shovel full of sand on it and dunk it in a river and it would run great could even fire it submerged if you really wanted to — had a great zoomy pistol grip that fit anyones hands, large safety that was quick to employ and even the girls could manage it nicely ... iirc we called it the smg. Sadly got replaced when they decided that the C7 could do everything better.

Yes , I remember the neat little 9 mm SMG , collapsing buttstock, great for vehicle and armoured crews , ther was all kinds of stories floating around that if you threw a cocked SMG in a room, it would go off , spraying rounds all over ..lol
 
we used to have in the CF a ‘high capacity 9mm’ — was damned accurate too and could keep every round in the center of a fig 11 target easily at 100m .... you could pour a shovel full of sand on it and dunk it in a river and it would run great could even fire it submerged if you really wanted to — had a great zoomy pistol grip that fit anyones hands, large safety that was quick to employ and even the girls could manage it nicely ... iirc we called it the smg. Sadly got replaced when they decided that the C7 could do everything better.

What do you mean? We still have mp5 variants. :)
They are quite excellent.
 
Wow, so much insight about the old and dated Browning . I bet the next enemy combatant shot with one could very well be the first one ever shot. The old soldier/war horse BHP should be retired from service it has served Canadian troops well but the day is long past for it on todays, let alone some future, battlefield. Now with that said I expect we will be seeing the centenary of the BHP in CF service the way we LOVE to drag procurement out, study things to death, consult "stakeholders" (who funny enough never seem to be the end users) and generally overspend instead of just placing the order and buying a pistol.
:) well for exactly the observation you make: “... may very well be the first one ever shot” ... I dont imagine a replacement pistol is seen as a pressing issue. BUT if a Glock gives soldiers more confidence in their equipment and their ability to perform their duties ... lay down the credit card and buy a few truckloads of them.
 
After 12 years of service...

As for the HP being too heavy, ah shucks. Do some weight training. It's a combat weapon, not an item of dress.

Its not an item of dress, and yet it has to be worn, on the body, in a holster, typically on a leg. Put an extra lb in a 80 lb ruck sack and you barely notice the difference. Put a lb on your leg and go for a long walk and it makes a world of difference. There is a reason why boot manufacturers make a lot of fuss over a few individual grams of mass. Because weight loads on the lower body have a disproportionately exaggerated effect on performance. Particularly when running, jumping and climbing is involved.

I know many soldiers who made the choice to simply not take their pistol on patrol because in their opinion the weight wasn't worth having a back up gun if their primary failed. That's a pretty sad state of affairs. A lighter, more reliable pistol will increase combat power and therefore inevitably save lives.

PS, when the browning first entered service, your average infanteer was carrying less than 25lbs of equipment. Nowadays is a rare thing for a riflemen to walk out of the gate with less than 60.
In WW2 rifle companies were rarely more than 500m-1km away from the nearest resupply echelon. Today its not uncommon for solders to be operating 50km or more away from their nearest supported unit.

With all due respect, your weight training recommendation doesn't hold up. Get it? :)

On my commercial model, I removed the mag safety which greatly improves the trigger pull. Can't get caught doing that on a military model and not get your pee-pee slapped.
Fixed. Honestly sir, I don't know how that epoxy got in there. I've tried for hours and CLP just can't seem to get it out. :)

the problem is what manufacturer will let Colt Canada service and work on there product.

Its actually worse than that. The last time Canada ran a pistol procurement, about 8 or 9 years ago, the contract actually specified that the successful bidder would surrender all of their IP and technical data to colt who would actually manufacture the pistols for them. Further, there was no guarantee in place that the tech data would stay in Canada, and colt Canada would have been free to transfer that data to the parent company colt international.

What pistol manufacturer in their right mind would give all their IP to a competitor, just to win a tender where they wouldn't even have the privilege of manufacturing their own pistols, but would have their reputation on the line if the resulting pistol didn't meet expectations? Unsurprisingly, there were no bidders.

I find it interesting that my experience with both commercial and Inglis HPs is so different from that of others.

The HP continues to highly regarded around the world so you have to wonder about the dissatisfaction with our Inglis HPs.

And while your experience is certainly valid and valuable, so too is everyone else's.

First, while the BHP design might be good, that says nothing about individual pistols.

The BHP is sensitive to weak grips, which is a common source of stoppages. A modern combat pistol should not be sensitive. PS Women deserve a good pistol too.

Second, a privately owned well maintained pistol used exclusively for competition is a very different affair than a service pistol which can see a hundred different users in a year, and spends far more time getting smashed around, manhandled, dragged over obstacles and in and out of vehicles then it does being shot, and still needs function 100% of the time.

In a modern gun fight, the only time a pistol gets used is when the shooter is staring at an enemy target at max pistol range or less (think 25 meters or less) AND their primary weapon has already failed. This is not a time to concern yourself with a good grip or the precise alignment of tiny little sights, or the smooth press of a heavy and jerky trigger.

Its time to personify your will to survive at all costs through your pistol towards your target and finger bang the trigger until they go down.

I am not down on the BHPs. I own a belgian made pre WW2 browning, and it routinely sees trips to the range. There was a time when it was one of the best combat pistols available. 70 years later that is clearly no longer the case.
 
'Virtually' doesn't mean what the author thinks it means.

Having fired the browning HP both weak side and with gloves, live fire and in the Virtual Small Arms trainer, the author is wrong about a lot of things.

I've trained more than 2000 soldiers on the BHP, and having seen hundreds of hammer bites. Anyone getting hammer bites is invariably holding the pistol wrong. I have yet to see a human being with hands that are so ogreish that a proper grip requires the web of the hand to be exposed to the hammer. Poor choice of or incorrectly sized glove is also a contributing factor. Of all the brownings short comings, this isn't one of them.
 
All I'm hearing are a lot of excuses and justifications for operator error, lack of knowledge and experience with the HP.

I did a lot of weak handed shooting with the HP. I did find the grips of my commercial models too thick for my small hands so I sanded off all the checkering. This made strong hand and weak hand shooting better.

A combat soldier might be better served with his rifle than any pistol. It requires more training to be a competent pistol shot than a rifleman.

In what era was the combat load of an infantryman a mere 25 lbs?

Re: your comment about "epoxy" .... just where would you apply it to accomplish what? Soldiers are discouraged from altering their guns in any way, shape or form. If you had worn the uniform, you would know that.
 
All I'm hearing are a lot of excuses and justifications for operator error, lack of knowledge and experience with the HP.

I did a lot of weak handed shooting with the HP. I did find the grips of my commercial models too thick for my small hands so I sanded off all the checkering. This made strong hand and weak hand shooting better.

A combat soldier might be better served with his rifle than any pistol. It requires more training to be a competent pistol shot than a rifleman.

In what era was the combat load of an infantryman a mere 25 lbs?

Re: your comment about "epoxy" .... just where would you apply it to accomplish what? Soldiers are discouraged from altering their guns in any way, shape or form. If you had worn the uniform, you would know that.

Let's go ahead and put a pin in that whole "if you had worn the uniform" business. Nothing good ever comes of it.

Yes, a soldier is better served with a rifle than his pistol. That is why the rifle is the primary and the pistol is the secondary. Tertiary is the bayonet.

Yes, it takes more training to be a competent pistol shot, and regrettably the CAF has consistently failed to prioritize adequate training for the pistol. All the more reason to replace the pistol with a more modern side arm that has a much smaller training curve.

Yes, soldiers are discouraged from altering their guns in any way: Said every weapons tech on earth. Funny enough the weapons techs don't really have the stones to pop outside the wire for a quick random inspection of the weapons in the rifle company. On two different deployments I can count on one hand the number of soldiers who lacked the self respect to quickly disregard that rule and modify their weapons with all manner of accessories and alterations to suit personal requirements. My unit actually issued us Hogue grips for the browning as a local purchase.

In the article, there is mention of the infamous rattle. Its when the barrel bushing is so worn out from use that the slide can no longer hold the muzzle tightly when in battery and the result is significantly degraded accuracy. Not a stoppage issue per se, but it would convince any open minded person that part of the issue is simply that the existing fleet is just worn out from decades of use. All firearms are consumable.

If all you are hearing is excuses, then kit up with a modern fighting order and post up a video of hows its done.
 
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We get it, you love the BHP and we accept it.

I still think that its time is over I chose to leave it in the vault instead of taking it to the field just to say ''hey I have a pistol shaped piece of metal hanging down my leg. It has proven very unreliable due to garbage magazines, cannot be safely carried with a round in the chamber and weight more than a sidearm should weight in this era.You can tell me to hit the gym for my weight comment if you want, no phuck is given from people hiding behind a keyboard



All I'm hearing are a lot of excuses and justifications for operator error, lack of knowledge and experience with the HP.

I did a lot of weak handed shooting with the HP. I did find the grips of my commercial models too thick for my small hands so I sanded off all the checkering. This made strong hand and weak hand shooting better.

A combat soldier might be better served with his rifle than any pistol. It requires more training to be a competent pistol shot than a rifleman.

In what era was the combat load of an infantryman a mere 25 lbs?

Re: your comment about "epoxy" .... just where would you apply it to accomplish what? Soldiers are discouraged from altering their guns in any way, shape or form. If you had worn the uniform, you would know that.
 
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