Canada's WWII-era pistols dangerously unreliable - News Article 10/12/ '18

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I've played with the LAVIII /25mm quite a bit in training simulations and found that it could sure tear the a$$ out of an airmobile assault. I don't know how effective it would be against the fast movers who tend to stay high and deliver PGM these days.

There's always the 'golden BB' strategy though. During the 2003 Iraq war some smart guy on the other side had his troops lay on their backs and fire up a storm of AK47 fire for a major helicopter movement to fly through. It was a bad day, even for the Apaches. Funnily enough, the Mujadaheen liked the old Martini-Henrys against Soviet helicopters in Afghanistan because they threw out a big, heavy scab of lead which wasn't good for the rotors.

Indeed. Never mind dedicated AAA, a DShK or PKM or as you say even an AK can make for a nasty day in a helicopter, especially one flying full of troops with open doors.

You may not shoot them all, or even many, down, but just posing the threat forces the enemy to take countermeasures and reduces their effectiveness, ie by increasing stand off ranges, forcing sub optimal weapons use and occupying the pilot's time with things other than employing weapons etc etc.

Heck there were a few cases in AStan (maybe Iraq too?) of RPGs being used to hit helicopters, definitely not an ideal weapon but it sure worked a few times.
 
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indeed there was. The issued holster was known in my circle as the widow maker. No way you could get anywhere close to a 2 second draw time with it. Maybe 5 with practice unless you started stripped off the retention devices. Being a poor universal holster you seriously risked losing the pistol if you were trying to make it easier to draw. just terrible.

My team came back in to the airfield every 6-8 weeks or so, and we used to joke that really the only good thing that came of going back to KAF was being able to keep up with the latest Holster Fashions on the boardwalk. Someone local was hand-making custom leather shoulder holsters and they were all the rage with the Hesco Hobbits.

My great regret is not buying one of those contraptions as a souvenir. Don't know what I'd ever do with a pistol purse after that, but still...

There's a thumb break part you can get to replace the flap on the Bianchi which makes it slightly less terrible, but it's still far from good. Actually as a FOB shoulder holster it's not bad, decent enough if you just need something comfy to tote your piece around in. I think I might have actually used it for that waiting for the flight out, in civvies all day and not wanting to wear a gun belt.
 
Never used the browning other than CAP. Overseas I had a p226. Holster was a nice solely canadian one on the belt. I feel bad for those still using brownings. Might as well use a makarov
 
Here's a question; how many times did Cdn troops actually use pistols to kill or wound or suppress the bad guys in Afghanistan? There must be some AARs or official records on this which may be somewhat different than the anecdotal evidence.

I know of one instance. During the first assault on Op MEDUSA, an officer was separated from his weapon during the fight, don't know if it was through battle damage or it went up in his vehicle or what have you, and had to rely on his pistol when he had to dash forward to retrieve a section that was pinned down.

I had to use mine to escalate force once.

I know of one MP who had to rely on his BHP to shoot one of our RG31s. Which was stationary. In the download area at KAF. Full of Canadian soldiers. But that's another story.

They were useful for air sentries aka the guys keeping an eye at the rear of a convoy. In Afghanistan if a pistol comes out it's traditionally because someone's getting executed, so they definitely take notice of them. Paradoxically, being so used to having rifles pointed at them they didn't care so much. At least that's how it was explained to me by the ANP, and I saw it borne out where the guy in the back of their pickup used a pistol to wave people away and they certainly seemed to react more decisively than with a rifle.

There was a weapons effectiveness / satisfaction study done but I can't remember where to find it anymore. Maybe it was from ALLC. Individual pistol use or anything like that wouldn't be captured in a war diary or the end tour AAR, except to record the anecdotal things you're hearing here. I personally have never heard of any instance where the enemy was actually killed with the BHP, not saying it didn't happen, just that I've never heard it. They were definitely used for self defence and "suppression," insomuch as you can suppress anything with a 9mm handgun. They definitely still have a great deal of use though, despite being so rarely or never used to actually kill someone. I never used a fire extinguisher in theater either, but you wouldn't dream of not having one around (thank jebus I didn't need it... though lots of guys did when they got IED'd)
 
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Most of my guys (myself included) just carried the pistol in a single mag shingle on the Right Front of the fighting order (Mostly Tactical Tailor). We mostly carried the pistol inside the wire in a minimalist pants-belt holster bought on the KAF Boardwalk, or in a tactical holster on a pistol-belt.

My issued Hi Power lost the Mag Safety and standard Grips and gained Mk III Grips, a MK III extended ambi Safety, and Grip-tape on the front and rear straps. My trusty 2IC (a fellow gun-guy) put everything back to issued state after I was blown up and evacuated. That rifle needed a new Receiver Extension as a minimum, which was kinked from the blast. Other thsan that, my small arms fared pretty well in the blast. My legs, not so much....

Ah, maybe I should have given fitting the safety a shot then... didn't end up needing it though thankfully in any case.
 
I know of one instance. During the first assault on Op MEDUSA, an officer was separated from his weapon during the fight, don't know if it was through battle damage or it went up in his vehicle or what have you, and had to rely on his pistol when he had to dash forward to retrieve a section that was pinned down.

I had to use mine to escalate force once.

I know of one MP who had to rely on his BHP to shoot one of our RG31s. Which was stationary. In the download area at KAF. Full of Canadian soldiers. But that's another story.

They were useful for air sentries aka the guys keeping an eye at the rear of a convoy. In Afghanistan if a pistol comes out it's traditionally because someone's getting executed, so they definitely take notice of them. Paradoxically, being so used to having rifles pointed at them they didn't care so much. At least that's how it was explained to me by the ANP, and I saw it borne out where the guy in the back of their pickup used a pistol to wave people away and they certainly seemed to react more decisively than with a rifle.

There was a weapons effectiveness / satisfaction study done but I can't remember where to find it anymore. Maybe it was from ALLC. Individual pistol use or anything like that wouldn't be captured in a war diary or the end tour AAR, except to record the anecdotal things you're hearing here. I personally have never heard of any instance where the enemy was actually killed with the BHP, not saying it didn't happen, just that I've never heard it. They were definitely used for self defence and "suppression," insomuch as you can suppress anything with a 9mm handgun. They definitely still have a great deal of use though, despite being so rarely or never used to actually kill someone. I never used a fire extinguisher in theater either, but you wouldn't dream of not having one around (thank jebus I didn't need it... though lots of guys did when they got IED'd)


Oh my god ! Are you refering to the dumb meat head that usef his pistol to destroy sensitive equipment in their RG31, failed at doing it properly and the truck was finally recovered on its own power ? Their cant be more than one story like that... Although anything is possible with the glorious mps...
 
Oh my god ! Are you refering to the dumb meat head that usef his pistol to destroy sensitive equipment in their RG31, failed at doing it properly and the truck was finally recovered on its own power ? Their cant be more than one story like that... Although anything is possible with the glorious mps...

Oh brother.

Yes. Yes there is more than one story then.

A convoy is halted at the download area at KAF, downloading. A PRT convoy approaches and pulls in behind. The MP air sentry at the rear of the first convoy starts giving the lead RG of the next convoy hand signals. They weren't seen by the CComd, as he was heads down closing up his maps and unplugging his headset, etc.

Ping.

He looks up to see a dent in the hood and a BHP being pointed at him. The good Sgt dismounts to inquire what in the actual #### was going on. The good Sgt is told that his vehicle didn't heed hand signals to stop. The MP Cpl that opened fire then enquires if this could stay just between them. "Of course buds," says the Sgt. "No worries, won't say a word.... My CO's riding with me though, and he's kinda pissed."

I wasn't there, but heard the story from the Sgt who was the commander of the convoy that always ran supplies out to us.
 
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Leslie was a long range sniper (arty) and now sits as a Liberal MP for one of the Ottawa area ridings, thus showing his true colors (koff,koff). Liberals have never been friends of the military or gun owners. There's still a nagging fear of him becoming the MND. Rick Hillier said he'd destroy the Armed Forces if he ever became CDS. Actually there's not a hell of a lot left to destroy. :sok2
 
Rick Hillier said he'd destroy the Armed Forces if he ever became CDS. Actually there's not a hell of a lot left to destroy. :sok2

Well, given that Leslie's last act in the military was to recommend the destruction of the organizational system that Hillier, his old boss, had created (while Hillier was still the CDS), it's not surprising there's some animosity on that side. Or resentment on Leslie's for never being made CDS like his granddaddy. Or minister like both of his grandaddies.

FWIW I side with Hillier here. Canada has ALWAYS maintained a disproportionately top heavy structure in peacetime; the standing Army forms the training cadre for a deployment force, and the existing higher staff can be spread out to command the new formations. Afghanistan was the first war that was fought mostly with the Regular Force of the day. That's the first time it's ever happened in our history.

You can't make a Captain with 5 years experience or a LCol with 15 in less than, well, 5 and 15 years. Training privates and Cpls is, in comparison, child's play. If we moved to Leslie's model, Canada would for the first time in it's history be forgoing any ability to expand quickly in time of war. Maybe that's where we're at these days, and we will indeed never again undergo mass mobilization, but boy... that's a bold risk to take.
 
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Oh brother.

Yes. Yes there is more than one story then.

A convoy is halted at the download area at KAF, downloading. A PRT convoy approaches and pulls in behind. The MP air sentry at the rear of the first convoy starts giving the lead RG of the next convoy hand signals. They weren't seen by the CComd, as he was heads down closing up his maps and unplugging his headset, etc.

Ping.

He looks up to see a dent in the hood and a BHP being pointed at him. The good Sgt dismounts to inquire what in the actual #### was going on. The good Sgt is told that his vehicle didn't heed hand signals to stop. The MP Cpl that opened fire then enquires if this could stay just between them. "Of course buds," says the Sgt. "No worries, won't say a word.... My CO's riding with me though, and he's kinda pissed."

I wasn't there, but heard the story from the Sgt who was the commander of the convoy that always ran supplies out to us.

Wow !
 
There's a posting on the political 'Alerts' forum re: it's going to take TEN years for the Inglis HP to be replaced. Some of you guys should join in .....

Soldiers in general are being slagged by the usual no minds.
 
Leslie was a long range sniper (arty) and now sits as a Liberal MP for one of the Ottawa area ridings, thus showing his true colors (koff,koff). Liberals have never been friends of the military or gun owners. There's still a nagging fear of him becoming the MND. Rick Hillier said he'd destroy the Armed Forces if he ever became CDS. Actually there's not a hell of a lot left to destroy. :sok2

He actually expressed interest with the Conservative Party to run as a candidate. They rejected him. The publicized baggage of his short but costly move was just too much. Even the Liberals realize the taint that came with him, and relegated him to a non-visible position. Personally, my interactions with him were not negative...he always impressed me. But given the task of cutting costs, he did what had to be done. Things like parking a good portion of the LSVWs....the trucks are expensive lemons and most were just being used as campers anyway.
 
There's a posting on the political 'Alerts' forum re: it's going to take TEN years for the Inglis HP to be replaced. Some of you guys should join in .....

Soldiers in general are being slagged by the usual no minds.

HA!

HA!

I heard ten years as a timeline... fifteen years ago.

Ten years seems absurdly optimistic.
 
He actually expressed interest with the Conservative Party to run as a candidate. They rejected him. The publicized baggage of his short but costly move was just too much. Even the Liberals realize the taint that came with him, and relegated him to a non-visible position. Personally, my interactions with him were not negative...he always impressed me. But given the task of cutting costs, he did what had to be done. Things like parking a good portion of the LSVWs....the trucks are expensive lemons and most were just being used as campers anyway.

I'm sticking with the Hillier assessment. These days Leslie is just another Liberal who would eagerly vote to take our guns away.
 
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