I don't think there is a shooting club set up at Connaught Ranges. I seem to remember a few years ago the RSM wouldn't even let Range Control shoot on the ranges.
Canadian Armys "Interm Pistol Program"
- Thread starter LeeEnfieldNo.4_mk1
- Start date
I don't think there is a shooting club set up at Connaught Ranges. I seem to remember a few years ago the RSM wouldn't even let Range Control shoot on the ranges.
So if someone was a member of the shooting club and trained as an RSO he/she could shoot when they wanted? Or is an RSO not allowed to shoot while acting as an RSO? lol
- Location
- Nipissing, Ontario
Unfortunately the RSO is not allowed to participate in the shoot and that means a minimum of 2 people on the range. The Wing CO seems to support the use of the range when not in use for CF (WASF, MPs, etc).
- Location
- WMU248 near Edmonton
wellllll..... not all base shooting clubs are equal.
When I'm RSOing if things are all going well and I have no newbies / wives etc.... I will take time to shoot a few strings with the guys.
I'm curious that your club appears to have 'club guns' a few base commanders back all the club guns went off to milarm and sold
Oh and as for Dinosaurs, I'm one, just over 32 years now
crusty and cranky. However I do like my Lowa boots nicer then the magnums I deployed with. And I remember using all the crappy kit like the nylon 'raingear' the 'flack vest' and the Pre 86 pattern webbing, workdress, in several different patterns. Things have gotten lightyears better compared to the 80's and 90's. The tack vest is better then the bosnia tack vest but its still not great, I only wear it when I have to set an example....
I have invested in a fair bit of kit but I'm getting too 'old' to actually need to use it Banished to the cubical, my penance for getting to go on my last ROTO - Location
- Nipissing, Ontario
wellllll..... not all base shooting clubs are equal.
When I'm RSOing if things are all going well and I have no newbies / wives etc.... I will take time to shoot a few strings with the guys.
I'm curious that your club appears to have 'club guns' a few base commanders back all the club guns went off to milarm and sold
We treat our club range just like any other military range. All RSOs are drawn from the official Wing list and we are all equally trained and qualified on on both C7 and 9mm. I'm not saying that I don't squeeze off a few rounds when I'm RSO, but, officially we are not supposed to.
Our club guns belong to PSP and DND. All restricted are no longer registered and are now government inventory and can never be sold to the public under controlled goods regulations. I'm not certain the Wing CO has any input on the matter. They are stored in the vault and only an RSO can take them out. They are free to be used by any member or guest, but, they often stay locked up because most of use bring out our personal firearms and let people use them all they want. It's all about sharing the sport and, with the number of young service personnel (and USAF), we get quite a few guests out.
I feel bad for the OP on this one. He unintentionally opened a can of angry snakes.
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
You guys would ####ing have an an aneurysm if you only knew how much perfectly good small arms ammo gets canned up after recovery from the amnesty program....
It gets canned by caliber (specific Amnesty NSN for each caliber) , then the full cans get palletized and when the second line has no space, a truck of the pallets goes to 3rd line Depot to rot like in raiders of the lost arc.
The SAM has a section saying we can inspect and return these rounds to CC12 training use BUT NOONE DOES and I have no ####ing idea why. No matter how many times I bring it up. 90 percent of the ammo is perfectly serviceable.
If I was the king, any in country trg would be issued this ammo buck-she until it's gone. As much as you want. Just ask.
Once it's gone then we start using allocation annual ammo....
We're talking rows of pallets stacked 4 high of small arms amnesty that is good to go.....
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Why would CC spend one dime developing their own pistol when morons in PSPC and DND are hell bent on finding one of their competitors to surrender all their technical data to them for free?
Boy, you gotta love the service though. We'll eat our own and poop out the furry bits, but as soon as an outsider tries to get in on it it's one solid wall of hate
Thats always the way. As the old Pashtun saying goes, my cousin and I against the world, my brother and I against my Cousin.
Talk about an essential service.
Who remembers the email bun fight that jammed up inboxes across the task force when this gem made the rounds?
https://me.me/i/afghanistan-individual-experiences-may-vary-2046958
AND the webbing was actually modular. When you have a vest and only two out of 8 pouches are replaceable, and non are relocatable, that aint modular.
You and me are on the same page on many things. This post widely misses the mark. I have participated in more than two dozen DRDC trials, and heard tell of many hundreds more, and not a single one of them was based on a sound understanding of end user requirements. Every single one of them was conceptually or scientifically flawed right out of the gate.
Like the one looking for a kinetic energy generation device hosted on a mobility limiting leg brace that interfered with all leg loads (Not a problem cause CAF doesn't issue leg loads, they said) based on the assumption that every soldier in the battle group on patrol was carrying 10 lbs of batteries.
Or the shift with toxic coolant running through tubing in order to air condition soldiers when they were plugged into the LAV (which already had AC) and added half a lb to the clothing wait and actually made troops hotter when the shirt wasn't plugged in (most of the time). And and was toxic, in case anyone got shot.
DRDC is one big self licking ice cream cone that would be first against the wall if I were king of Canadian Procurement.
Tac vest well made? The drag handle wouldn't survive the weight of a fully loaded tac vest, let alone a child, let alone an actual soldier.
The biggest problem I had with almost all of the programs I saw DRDC running is that people were being evaluated not on their ability to produce a useful product or idea, but on their ability to follow a process. A process that had to end with the program being approved. There was always massive incentive to smash a product that wasn't ready through to completion just a guy could get the tick for career progression.
Lets be clear about one thing though. The tac vest was never an ok piece of kit, and not well suited to any job in the CAF anywhere, ever. Its a modified fishing vest. The whole concept of one size fits all, when there are at least 15 different specialized tasks within the infantry alone, speaks volumes about how well anyone who supports the tac vest actually understands the business.
I had one instructor once tell us in all seriousness that soldiers need not be issued food. All that should be issued is a bayonet. The battle cry "take that trench" would just as soon be replaced by the ringing of the dinner bell.
This. On my first tour, more than half the company couldn't find it within themselves to spend one red cent on personal kit, truly believing that if they needed better kit the queen would issue it to them. IN my opinion anyone who doesn't completely reject the tac vest as a dangerous piece of anti-kit lacks the self respect and dedication to excellence to call themselves a professional soldier.
When we got permission to go rogue on boots these were the same guys cheaping out on swats for a tour in the mountains, only to blow through two pairs in two months, and end up back in black cadillacs while waiting for the mail.
On my second deployment, night and day. In our five man team the only issued pers kit among us was five pairs of pants. Total privilege to work with proper villains.
Some pics from Op MEDUSA showing mixed kit from a bunch of different sections in both RCR and PPCLI companies. Pics show the vast majority of guys wearing the issue vest. Many guys I spoke to didn't even hate it...
C/S 33. With utmost respect to some of the C/S 31 folks in that last picture, perfect example of a guy who didn't think his life and operational effectiveness was worth a few hundred dollars.
I hope so. There will be no shortage of support for it as long as it is the US army pistol of record.
And to be honest, not only do I want us to buy it, but I want us to buy it for the single reason that the Americans bought it.
And we can spend the 10 million dollars we just saved reinventing the wheel on training people how to actually shoot pistol.
ok keep it on topic
unfortunately I work in procurement so I deal with the pain of talking to PSPC on a regular basis.
My plan IF I was allowed to replace the pistols would be simple
Get 10 pistols from each of our NATO allies (except Portugal and Greece, they are using pistols as old as we are, and any other country that's using crap Hungary, Romania....
then proceed to test them to destruction
not take the top 3 preforming pistols, get 200 of each, troop trials, shoot them a lot.... 40 pistols of each type to each of the CMBGs and 40 to CSOR the last 40 of each type can be split between the Airforce and Navy.
and this should sort out an acceptable pistol. and should be completed in about 1 year. Then just buy a #### load
but I'm not in charge
With respect this is a terrible plan that will waste years and millions of dollars. And is an embodiment of exactly the problem with Canadian procurement. Thinking we need to test everything because of the arrogant belief that Canadians or Canadian problems are some how unique.
The only testing we need to do after we buy the Sig 320 is QA testing to make sure the actual specimens we received meet the spec.
My experience 100%
Hahaha bandoleers !! Since this summer, all we've been issued for ammo was from 2004-2006 packed in bandoleers. 600 per box, 100 rounds bandoleers. Good times
I think the reason for the lack of AAR about kit&weapon is because most ignore the existence of the "unsatisfactory kit report". I'm 16 years in and learn about it maybe 3-4 years ago.
On the other end, we've been in a room with the "fine folks"of DLR... Being told that cadpat boots were the best boots ever designed and being told that our Lowas, Haix, Danners were substandard compared to the cadpat boots... Hell we have people within our own CoC stalling progress with their dinosaur mentality of "issued kit is good, issued kit only".
Sometimes its just simpler to wear what we want/need and deal with it if caught than going thru the process of asking or trying to ger things changed. Fortunatly, just like the real dinosaurs, the asteroid is slowly coming and phasing out mentalities ranging between mental retardation to personnal war on effeciency/confort.
Had to explain my work desktop background to my CSM, he laughed pretty hard and asked me which one he was in the picture
Afghanistan is the best thing that happened to rations. So many guys sitting around with free time to actually fill out the comment cards. They should be putting comment cards in the rations about personal kit.
I had a general come out to visit us in the FOB, wearing the new issued boots, wanting to know what all the troops thought about the issued boots. His whole purpose of coming to Afghanistan was to get the "ground truth" about the boots. He could have save himself the trouble cause not a single soldier in the company had been issued them.
Later, some other general came out to visit us and looked the company in the eye and told us all no replacement for the pistol was necessary because up to that point no Canadian soldier had fired a round from the pistol in anger since WW2. Never mind the fact that just three days later a guy took a round in the plate because he couldn't get a round off with his pistol.
100 years ago no body could make enough boots to supply an army in time war. Mass Procurement was the only way.
100 years ago, your average soldier lacked any concept of the demands that operations place on equipment, and manufacturers with a proven reputation were few and far between. Mass procurement with strict government development and oversight was the only way.
Its 2019. Its time to let the old ways die.
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OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Ahahahaha
Yup that got a lot of people butthurt
I tried for battle group twice. I was one of the few drivers the platoon had, so I was told no. But I provided escort for the fob resupplies.
PaveHammer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Kingston, ON
Irrespective of what we choose, what trials are run, what over-politicized bull#### gets pushed, and what eventually gets funded, there is one thing that will remain an absolute certainty:
PSPC will #### this up.
Bradley
PSPC will #### this up.
Bradley
My point precisely. I think I said exactly that here or in the other thread. There's literally no incentive for CC to develop their own. To be fair to the morons, they're bound by policy and political considerations way above their pay grade. I guarantee you that even if the CDS and both ministers resigned over having CC produce the pistols, it wouldn't change a thing. As bad as bureaucrats can be, they have no incentive to give a flying where stuff is produced; that's purely a political issue.
I miss those emails. The one with the 2Lt trying to book rations? The "shut up about it" email after Adam Day's MEDUSA articles came out? Stuff like that would always liven up an inbox full of the usual dullness.
Also, getting "rocketed" every day is highly overrated. Maybe a half dozen people got wounded, total? One or maybe two killed? Rockets into KAF were barely a nuisance. The biggest headache of them was the stupid head count after, despite the fact the QRF was going to check the impact site for casualties anyway. After the first one I just stopped calling my group in, and no one noticed or cared. By the end of the tour when we were back on KAF and the rocket alarm sounded and all the new incoming guys bolted for the bunkers, all the outgoing guys just moved up in Canada house and took the good seats in front of the movie screen.
I remember the first night we got into theatre, and the briefing was in case of rocket attack to hit the floor. We were on the second floor of the corimec shacks.
"Hey, J?"
"Yeah dude?"
"You know how they said hit the floor if there's a rocket?"
"Yeah"
"Well... I'm above you, right?"
"Yeah"
"And the fragments are coming up from ground level, right?"
"Sure, I guess, yeah"
"So wouldn't I just better off in bed above you and you can soak them up?"
"Go #### yourself dude"
"Night J"
"Night, man"
It's so weird that somehow I find myself in the odd position of not ####ting on the TV, given that I never wore it on deployment and spent years of my career getting #### for wearing non issued kit - but...
It's not like the effing things plant IEDs in front of you. I maintain they ARE well made, as in well constructed of good materials. I don't recall seeing one blowing apart, ever. I've been dragged by the handle many times, and I've been/seen plenty of guys hauled out a hatch with one practicing cas evac. Whether it's suitable for the purpose and whether it's well made are two different issues. I saw and experienced WAAAAAY more failures with 82 pattern components; seams blowing out, those plastic tabs on the back busting off, plastic buckles snapping, etc etc. I broke lots of components on my 82 patt. I know for sure I replaced the front buckle and the buckles on the yoke a few times... I don't recall breaking anything on the TV, and I used both for roughly the same amount of time.
Anyway, what were your choices with 82 patt? You could carry 2 or 4 mag pouches and 1 or 2 utility pouches. That's it, unless you were some 40" waisted freak. With a 34" waist the most I could fit was 4 x mag pouches, 2 x utility pouches and the buttpack. The difference between the TV and 82 patt in carrying capacity is minimal. The fact the TV has SR buckles and velcro on the mag pouches puts it light years ahead of the 82 pattern mag pouches... I remember sewing mine by hand to have velcro retention and SR buckles so you didn't have to use that that pull tab. Most every aftermarket mag pouch that isn't a shingle uses a SR buckle and velcro.
It was obsolete the day it was issued, but the TV is hardly the soldier murdering atrocity people here claim it to be. If a guy wears it, he's too cheap to spend money on aftermarket kit... that's an awfully convenient and definitive answer to sum up the mindset of the vast majority of soldiers. Look, I get it, I don't personally like it either, but it's hardly the end of the world. Despite the apocalyptic forecasting here, I can 100% guarantee you no soldier was killed or wounded as a result of the TV. Indeed most were killed in circumstances where nothing of any sort would have saved them apart from not being there.
Oh, come on... really? In that case you're saying Omer Lavoie, Bob Girouard, Steve Lehman, Scott Fawcett and my 2IC among tons of others are unprofessional lousy soldiers. I'll reiterate my disagreement there. Bob and Steve and my 2IC were some of the best NCOs I've ever had the pleasure of working with. I dare say 95% of soldiers couldn't hold a candle to them.
Which roto / when was that? I know we don't need to discuss all the other reasons why that's stupid, but... I can guarantee it's factually wrong. I know for sure of circumstances where it was used in Korea, the former Yugo and Afghanistan from first hand accounts of the officers that used them. #### I was nearly one of them - how close I came to needing to use it in anger you'd have to ask the disgruntled ex ANP officer with the AK, it was entirely up to him. I can say with 100% certainty though though that my pistol was the only thing that solved that problem.
Actually I gotta get it off my chest... FFS we didn't use artillery or tanks in anger between 1953 and 2006 either... might as well not update them too, right?
Actually, and quite famously, Canada couldn't procure decent boots at scale 100 (wellllll... ok, 104) years ago either, though that was more an issue of war profiteering than any technical inability. Small scale individual procurement was still better then, too. Officers had/got to buy their own kit then, and you can sure bet that they didn't have bespoke boots that rotted off their feet like the NCMs gov't contract boots did.
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Running Hwy 1 counts. I'd rather be a rifleman in a company than a sitting duck in a truck the whole tour.
That said... trivia time...
Which vehicle was statistically the safest to be in during the Kandahar deployment?
Which vehicle was statistically the least safe?
I don't have the reference at hand but I clearly remember reading it in an ALLC study years ago.
Ahahahaha
Yup that got a lot of people butthurt
The sentiment is 100% on.
Using a pic of two specific and identifiable females vs a pic of faceless grunts isn't. A pic of the Timmies line up would have done just as well.
I remember requesting a bunch of lumber to reinforce defensive positions and reinforce roofs... I got denied because it wasn't available. When I got back to KAF five months into my tour I got to gaze out at the magnificent new ball hockey arena made with beautiful, gorgeous, strong new timbers. Trump himself couldn't have built walls that nice.
I also remember having an HLs worth of desks dropped off courtesy of NTM-A, despite not having requested them nor having the physical room for them. They sat outside until the winter rains where they rotted in place.
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caf
I was in the army,r031 from 76-86,airborne,camp zouwani for a tour,carried the browning,was a awesome pistol,loved it soo much I now hav 2x,a 88 and a 44,oct model. both are pristine.but,as usuall the cdn gov are retarded and we /you are working with worn out equip.just like my old 64 pattern wbbing.lol
I was in the army,r031 from 76-86,airborne,camp zouwani for a tour,carried the browning,was a awesome pistol,loved it soo much I now hav 2x,a 88 and a 44,oct model. both are pristine.but,as usuall the cdn gov are retarded and we /you are working with worn out equip.just like my old 64 pattern wbbing.lol
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Well right away how do you want to say safest. No one has the stats for a true comparison for # of casualties/ km driven. Leopards were probably fairly safe. AHSVS also pretty safe.
Bisons were coffins on wheels. In 2006 Gwagons would have been a bad go but in 2009 they would have been the safest vehicles around cause they werent allowed outside of KAF. So what do you call safe?
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Lots I could comment on here. Most should probably be saved for politer company and or a pint.
Bob Girourd was the best RSM a soldier could ever ask for. Full stop. His personal views were that he couldnt give a flying F what kit soldiers wore. His attitude was that if writing your blood type on every piece of kit you own makes you more likely to take the trench when I tell you to take that trench, then fill yer boots. Omer never bothered with blood types so it got a pass. But he had a hard on for kit and Girourd knew it would make him unpopular but At the same time he supported his CO. I could say lots about Omer Lavoie that isnt flattering so let me just say I am not his biggest fan.
It took Gordon Oconner to visit theatre after hundreds of complaints from soldiers and a few parents to directly authorize the wearing of unissued kit.
And let me clear. I didnt say you were unprofessional for wearing a tac vest. Good troops also follow orders. I Just shake my head at anyone who thinks its good enough or doesnt purchase something better when authorized to do so.
And as for quality of the TV after teaching on 4 recruit courses I would suggest that not even 50 of the brand new vests survive that course with zippers and main buckles intact. Maybe the first ones were made of unobtanium but the ones rolling off the line now wouldnt pass Walmart QA checks.
Yes the webbing had its flaws, but at least you could replace the buckle on a web belt in the field in minutes, and the flaps of the mag pouches were easyish to work on.
I do know some guys who also spent hours/days tearing their TV apart and rebuilding it better, reinforced stitching, better pouch flags etc, but you need to be a wizard with an industrial sewing machine to do so, just for a final product that passes RSMs glare and is still a terrible design.
OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Naturally Canada had to get the RG with the smallest engine. It had no get up and go. Super top heavy. Then with the many mods, it effected the electrical. I had one that as soon as you went blackout mode, it would cause issues with the transmission and you'll lose 2 gears. And only way to solve that was shut down, and restart... But that also effected the weapon system.
