Tripods and gear.....From a match directors point of view

All good input guys.

I agree with everyone’s viewpoints, as everyone has a valid point. I agree legs can be extended at the start line, so the shooter isn’t fumbling with a rifle, bag, etc and causing more of a safety concern. I don’t agree that the height should be set prior to that, as that I feel is part of the problem solving portion of a stage. As an MD it’s up to me to allow the time in the stage for the opportunity to problem solve.

I like a “purist” match too, but being too restrictive can hurt the sport more than help. If I restrict everything then I may as well hold service rifle style matches rather than call it a PRS style match, which isn’t the intent here.

My opinion is having the tripod set to height before the clock starts is the equivalent of allowing the guy who is shooting off a pack to start in position. Whether it be a tripod or a pack the set up of the shooting position should be on the clock, but that’s just my opinion on it, hence the post. Shooters feedback is important as I want everyone to feel they had the same opportunity with the gear they are running.
 
I've seen lots of guys trying to use 3 bags at once, trying to fill in every void and make the most stable position possible. But then they have 30 seconds left and still have to shoot from 3 other positions. In my experience it is generally the newer shooters trying to make up for lack of experience with more gear.
Gear limits could help in a number of ways. Lower costs, encourage new shooters, faster stage turnover (not have so much gear to hump around) etc. If a particular stage is practically tailor made for using a tripod, simply say no tripods. Heck, I wouldnt mind seeing a no bags stage once in a while....
 
Based on the matches I've been to over the last couple years. The guys that practice between the matches will claim the top spots, doesn't matter on the gear. I've done stages right after the top guy cleans it where you physical couldn’t use a tri-pod or build a mountain of bags. The guys that have been to many matches know what gear to bring to the stage. People are more than happy to let people use their Tripod/gear at a stage if needed. I think all set up should be on the clock. GY6 had a few stages where you couldn’t use much for gear and it was fun, creating stages were its not "easy" use extra gear could be a option. I go to these matches to have fun with a guys that have the same hobby as me, some people will be able to afford the nice things and that’s ok. Most of the rifles I see at the matches are $5-10k, a $300 tripod isn’t much compared to everything else.
 
How are the tripods being employed?
- Are they being used simply with a tac-table or using the angled leg as a rear support?
- Are they being used to support the entire rifle, to avoid using some part of the supplied barricade?

If its for rifle support to avoid the use of a barricade or supplied support...then I agree that that should go.

If its for rear support, and you say it must be deployed on the clock, what does that mean? Can I preset the height before the stage, and just close the legs (meaning I just need to spread them at the position), or must all the legs be collapsed? I think there's a lot of ambiguity in terms of saying someone has to deploy a tripod on the clock, and by the time you run through all the what-ifs...someone will figure out another loophole to exploit.

I will use the a tripod for rear support when it makes sense for the stage layout, and the rules permit it, and like others have said, those who don't practice with it wont realize the advantage it can offer (with practice). That said, if a stage or match says no tripods (ie...NRL22), then I'm comfortable enough shooting without one to still make hits.

I think you either have to say everything goes, or specifically say "no tripods". If theres a compromise to be made, the suggestions about "open" division remaining a free-for-all, and then using a tactical or production division to keep newer or "purist" shooters interested may be the way to go.

The guys that want tripods will either adapt, or they'll go find another league that allows them. The guys that complain about tripods likely aren't going to start winning matches now they're not permitted. And in the end, everyone on the internet will continue to find things to complain about!
 
chrisward3 said:
How are the tripods being employed?
- Are they being used simply with a tac-table or using the angled leg as a rear support?
- Are they being used to support the entire rifle, to avoid using some part of the supplied barricade?

If its for rifle support to avoid the use of a barricade or supplied support...then I agree that that should go.

If its for rear support, and you say it must be deployed on the clock, what does that mean? Can I preset the height before the stage, and just close the legs (meaning I just need to spread them at the position), or must all the legs be collapsed? I think there's a lot of ambiguity in terms of saying someone has to deploy a tripod on the clock, and by the time you run through all the what-ifs...someone will figure out another loophole to exploit.

I will use the a tripod for rear support when it makes sense for the stage layout, and the rules permit it, and like others have said, those who don't practice with it wont realize the advantage it can offer (with practice). That said, if a stage or match says no tripods (ie...NRL22), then I'm comfortable enough shooting without one to still make hits.

I think you either have to say everything goes, or specifically say "no tripods". If theres a compromise to be made, the suggestions about "open" division remaining a free-for-all, and then using a tactical or production division to keep newer or "purist" shooters interested may be the way to go.

The guys that want tripods will either adapt, or they'll go find another league that allows them. The guys that complain about tripods likely aren't going to start winning matches now they're not permitted. And in the end, everyone on the internet will continue to find things to complain about!
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Agreed, people will always complain.

I guess to answer your questions the tripods are being used as rear support mostly from what I have seen. Without sounding like a ####, but I probably will, I’m not sure that using to support the rifle completely is in the spirit of shooting a stage where that wasn’t the intent, but, gamers gonna game. I don’t want to crush the gaming aspect but I don’t want the advantage to be so great that others feel cheated. Again, no right answer here, just looking to see what everyone’s consensus is. This thread serves to help me see past my blinders.
 
APS said:
Agreed, people will always complain.

I guess to answer your questions the tripods are being used as rear support mostly from what I have seen. Without sounding like a ####, but I probably will, I’m not sure that using to support the rifle completely is in the spirit of shooting a stage where that wasn’t the intent, but, gamers gonna game. I don’t want to crush the gaming aspect but I don’t want the advantage to be so great that others feel cheated. Again, no right answer here, just looking to see what everyone’s consensus is. This thread serves to help me see past my blinders.
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Not a #### at all! Im definitely of a gamer mindset, so if you tell me no tripods, or the tripod must be in some sort of state...im going to try and figure out another way to achieve the same level of stability. Thats why I say it may be easier to specify a certain stage or match is "no tripods", or design a stage that offers little to no benefit should a shooter try and use one (plus then we get to see the stubborn ones still try and figure out a way to use their fancy CF tripod!).

I think using the divisions to limit the amount of gear available for use would be the best way to appease as many shooters as possible while still being innovative, and competitive.
 
You can eliminate a ton of gaming with good stage design and description. If we did not want people to use a tripod, we used sandbags behind the barricade that would make it very difficult to utilize. Short times and larger distances to cover will also reduce tripod use.

At the same match we still had some stages people could utilize a tripod. I believe it is an excellent piece of equipment that has many uses and should be promoted. You will never see me put a equipment limit rule in place. I believe this restricts the growth and skills at matches.
Ryan
 
coyoteking said:
Really? Outside of heavy machine guns in the military , where are all these tripods being used?

They don’t seem very practical to me, especially if they take so long to set up that the work needs to be done before the stage begins.
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Clearly you need to come out and see what it’s all about, I use my tripod every chance I get and not just in comp, I use it hunting too, one of the most stable shooting platforms ever. As far as shooting sticks you should bring them out to a match so I can watch you toss them across the range in frustration!
 
It sure is interesting to hear from several Match Directors on this thread. We hardly get to sit down and yak about : stages or props or gear or bags or limits or rules or sight lines or procedures or policies! This has been helpful for me. Thanks for all that input!

:wave:

Cheers, Barney
 
Ryan_mcle said:
You can eliminate a ton of gaming with good stage design and description. If we did not want people to use a tripod, we used sandbags behind the barricade that would make it very difficult to utilize. Short times and larger distances to cover will also reduce tripod use.

At the same match we still had some stages people could utilize a tripod. I believe it is an excellent piece of equipment that has many uses and should be promoted. You will never see me put a equipment limit rule in place. I believe this restricts the growth and skills at matches.
Ryan
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I totally agree with this approach. Good course design presents the competitor with a challenge that must be solved. Many matches in Canada are shot from artillery pads or flat firing positions which are inherently more tripod friendly than natural terrain. It's the MDs' responsibility IMO to design the COF that inherently restricts gear.

I've been to a bunch of matches where gear is restricted in the match book and it didn't stop the same top shooters from cleaning the stages. In fact, the trend seems to be toward less kit, not more.

Personally, my only beef with the tripods from a match official's viewpoint is the amount of time it takes newer shooters to get set on them as it can affect match flow.
 
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To all the MD’s out there (who I truly appreciate and respect), it works like this:

Open (any gear) Match

Top guys (ie the ones who practice) take the top spots.

New guys get their eyes opened and the competitive ones get on the practice and training program to be a top guy.

Peanut gallery shouts out “look at the a$$holes in jerseys gaming it !! That’s why I don’t shoot PRS “ and carries on not shooting matches but instead posts multiple pics of their cherry picked groups at close range, their single digit SD shown on their labradar screen and how if PRS was more ‘real world’ they would shoot matches.


Limited Gear Match

Top guys (ie the ones who practice) take the top spots.

New guys get their eyes opened and the competitive ones get on the practice and training program to be a top guy.

Peanut gallery shouts out “look at the a$$holes in jerseys gaming it!! That’s why I don’t shoot PRS“ and carries on not shooting matches but instead posts multiple pics of their cherry picked groups at close range and/or their single digit SD shown on their labradar screen and how if PRS was more ‘real world’ they would shoot matches.

Multiple Class Multiple Division Match

Top guys (ie the ones who practice) take the top spots.

New guys get their eyes opened and the competitive ones get on the practice and training program to be a top guy.

Peanut gallery shouts out “look at the a$$holes in jerseys winning a prize because there’s two guys in his division !! That’s why I don’t shoot PRS. me and my gun don’t fit any of those classes or divisions too bad or I’d have shot the match and won my division.” and carries on not shooting matches but instead posts multiple pics of their cherry picked groups at close range and/or their single digit SD shown on their labradar screen and how if PRS was more ‘real world’ they would shoot matches.

.

So.... just run your matches the way you like, write the stage briefs to be easy to follow and enforced by RO’s, and we’ll come shoot them, have fun, and the sport will continue to grow.

The Gear Race only resides in the imagination of the non-participants.
 
rgv said:
To all the MD’s out there (who I truly appreciate and respect), it works like this:

Open (any gear) Match

Top guys (ie the ones who practice) take the top spots.

New guys get their eyes opened and the competitive ones get on the practice and training program to be a top guy.

Peanut gallery shouts out “look at the a$$holes in jerseys gaming it !! That’s why I don’t shoot PRS “ and carries on not shooting matches but instead posts multiple pics of their cherry picked groups at close range, their single digit SD shown on their labradar screen and how if PRS was more ‘real world’ they would shoot matches.


Limited Gear Match

Top guys (ie the ones who practice) take the top spots.

New guys get their eyes opened and the competitive ones get on the practice and training program to be a top guy.

Peanut gallery shouts out “look at the a$$holes in jerseys gaming it!! That’s why I don’t shoot PRS“ and carries on not shooting matches but instead posts multiple pics of their cherry picked groups at close range and/or their single digit SD shown on their labradar screen and how if PRS was more ‘real world’ they would shoot matches.

Multiple Class Multiple Division Match

Top guys (ie the ones who practice) take the top spots.

New guys get their eyes opened and the competitive ones get on the practice and training program to be a top guy.

Peanut gallery shouts out “look at the a$$holes in jerseys winning a prize because there’s two guys in his division !! That’s why I don’t shoot PRS. me and my gun don’t fit any of those classes or divisions too bad or I’d have shot the match and won my division.” and carries on not shooting matches but instead posts multiple pics of their cherry picked groups at close range and/or their single digit SD shown on their labradar screen and how if PRS was more ‘real world’ they would shoot matches.

.

So.... just run your matches the way you like, write the stage briefs to be easy to follow and enforced by RO’s, and we’ll come shoot them, have fun, and the sport will continue to grow.

The Gear Race only resides in the imagination of the non-participants.
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This made me laugh because it’s so true. Trolls gonna troll!
 
Johnny Boom said:
I totally agree with this approach. Good course design presents the competitor with a challenge that must be solved. Many matches in Canada are shot from artillery pads or flat firing positions which are inherently more tripod friendly than natural terrain. It's the MDs' responsibility IMO to design the COF that inherently restricts gear.

I've been to a bunch of matches where gear is restricted in the match book and it didn't stop the same top shooters from cleaning the stages. In fact, the trend seems to be toward less kit, not more.

Personally, my only beef with the tripods from a match official's viewpoint is the amount of time it takes newer shooters to get set on them as it can affect match flow.
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We run par times at our matches because we have limited space and time. This usually eliminates a lot of screwing around at the line and keeps the match flowing.
I would also agree that people seem to be simplifying their kit so they don’t look like a kit bomb at the line.
Having shot matches that Ryan was MD and he having shot mine, i agree, it’s up to the md to limit/not limit gear, have challenging stage design and etc. It also gets to be tough to make eloborate and challenging stages. Let’s face it, we are basically varying the sitting, kneeling, standing shooting positions when you get down to it. With that being said if shooters have ideas, TALK TO YOU LOCAL LEAUGE OR MD!!! Fresh ideas are always encouraged! WRAS isn’t a prize league so we always encourage membership to volunteer to be a MD!
 
I think the gear race is fine. Really it is a relatively new sport especially in Canada so many are finding there place and what they like. It is good for business and for the sport as it brings more people in. I found I have bought a number of items (not as much as some) and found once I started shooting more I leave more of the stuff at home. I have found the items I like to use and keep them with me and practice more with less. Time limits are set on each mat h so if someone is messing around to long with the gear they will time out, make less hits and eventually rid themselves of all the extras
 
Thanks to everyone who took the time to post, all the comments were great, and gave me a good spectrum to consider. I truly appreciate it.

Feel free to use this post to air other match grievances (within reason, whining will get you heckled). I know what I like and don't like as a competitor, but I'm also going to be bias, well, to what I want!

Feedback like this helps me build a better match, and if we have better more enjoyable matches we have more involvement and really that's what I would like!

Thanks everyone!

Adam
 
coyoteking said:
I’m very interested in competing in PRS but the use of tripods is a huge turnoff for me. Why not limit it to bipods and shooting sticks, like you would expect to see in real world shooting situations?

I like what you are proposing otherwise.
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If that's a turn off for you then I seriously doubt you would attend a PRS match anyways.

You are in the same camp as all the other wannabe PRS shooters that never go to a match because they "are not ready" or "gear is too expensive" or the "sponsored shooters are too mean".

Excuses are just a crutch. Either shoot them or don't. But don't pretend one little thing is whats preventing you from showing up. That's a load of BS.
 
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