3gunners rebelling towards 2guns
- Thread starter adamg
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I don’t like games, unless they simulate life. Shooting games are only of interest to me if they either assist in training or measure readiness.
Given a “real life” type scenario, I would NEVER elect to carry 3 guns. Nor do I think I would magically find a gun sitting in a barrel conveniently down range of a target. So for me, rifle and pistol are naturally the most realistic loadout. Given the size of a shotgun, and size and weight of the ammo, coupled with the range limitations of them, I would pick a rifle 10/10 times over a shotgun.
So as such, a don’t think that 3-gun is a good measure of readiness or a good simulation when the shotgun isn’t a realistic loadout.
I have participated in 3 gun, and every single match proved the shotgun to be irrelevant. Unless there was operator error, nobody ever misses with it, and the split times on the shotgun were fairly consistent from shooter to shooter. Pistol seems to separate the men from the boys, or more challenging longer rifle shots.
My personal preference is open type matches where the shooter can use whatever they like, with some ammo restrictions which may force the shooter to use a pistol, but the shooter carries all their guns through the entire match.
Given a “real life” type scenario, I would NEVER elect to carry 3 guns. Nor do I think I would magically find a gun sitting in a barrel conveniently down range of a target. So for me, rifle and pistol are naturally the most realistic loadout. Given the size of a shotgun, and size and weight of the ammo, coupled with the range limitations of them, I would pick a rifle 10/10 times over a shotgun.
So as such, a don’t think that 3-gun is a good measure of readiness or a good simulation when the shotgun isn’t a realistic loadout.
I have participated in 3 gun, and every single match proved the shotgun to be irrelevant. Unless there was operator error, nobody ever misses with it, and the split times on the shotgun were fairly consistent from shooter to shooter. Pistol seems to separate the men from the boys, or more challenging longer rifle shots.
My personal preference is open type matches where the shooter can use whatever they like, with some ammo restrictions which may force the shooter to use a pistol, but the shooter carries all their guns through the entire match.
.30/06 FTW
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Thunder Bay, Ontario
I love all the great ideas the posters here are contributing. Please do us all a favour and when you are the MD at a match with the ideas you are putting forth please post here so we can attend your match and let you know how you should actually do things.
The great thing with matches is that lots of people have different ideas on how to do things however you are doing nothing but blowing smoke unless you put the effort into running a match and trying out your ideas.
The great thing with matches is that lots of people have different ideas on how to do things however you are doing nothing but blowing smoke unless you put the effort into running a match and trying out your ideas.
Runningfool
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
In every club there are idea men and men who actually do the work (unfortunately not in the same ratio).
The idea men are perfectly happy in their role and don't understand why others are impatient with them because as far as they're concerned, they're contributing.
You just don't appreciate the genius it takes to come up with really good ideas, It's a gift.
Nicely done sir..
Please don't take this as being a Richard, but no one forced you or anyone else to be MD's. If you think there's too much whining and complaining then stop doing it. Otherwise, learn to accept suggestions and criticism and drive on.
Actually 3 gun origins stem from 2 gun matches that were 100% about being practical with practical equipment. The idea was perverted along the way and is now a game of speed where tactics and practicality have taken a back seat. And yes, shotguns are specialist firearms that do well at shooting birds or clays and pretty much suck at everything else when compared to a rifle.
Runningfool
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- SW Ontario
How many multigun events have you put on? Cause the the last two guys you quoted just now have put on a bunch so I’d just like to get an idea of your perspective. And they are not saying they don’t want to do it...they are not even saying you shouldn’t have your own ideas of how matches should be run...all they are saying is that if you want matches run your way then step up and do it! I could absolutely guarantee that if you decided to put on a 2 gun match, neither of those guys would come up to you and criticize or suggest you make the next one a 3gun. Why do you suppose that is?
Your notion that the “idea” was perverted along the way and that it is a game of speed tells me you have a very narrow idea of what 3 gun looks like. Same thing with FrankieT saying the shotgun was irrelevant. There are lots of people doing practical stuff with practical equipment. There are lots of events where the shotgun is very relevant. You guys may need to look a little further than your own backyard or YouTube 3GN videos.
And this last gem I just couldn’t let slip by....Shotguns are specialist firearms???? Did you really mean to type that? Shotguns are about as generalist as firearms go!
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Runningfool
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
There are a whole lot of people in this thread that have never put on a match of any sort let alone one involving 2 or *gasp* 3 guns. Here is a little point for them to consider:
For every person that suggests a 2 gun match would be better than 3 because they don’t really like shotguns there will be a person who suggests a 4 gun event would be more fun than 3 because they really like long range stuff. For every person that suggests there was a little too much shotgun emphasis on a stage there will be another who says they would have preferred a bit more shotgun work.
What is a Match director to do? We hear it from both ends so eventually we integrate the suggestions and just put on the kind of matches that we think most shooters would like to shoot. And to those that want something different we politely suggest that they put on the kind of matches they want to shoot.
For every person that suggests a 2 gun match would be better than 3 because they don’t really like shotguns there will be a person who suggests a 4 gun event would be more fun than 3 because they really like long range stuff. For every person that suggests there was a little too much shotgun emphasis on a stage there will be another who says they would have preferred a bit more shotgun work.
What is a Match director to do? We hear it from both ends so eventually we integrate the suggestions and just put on the kind of matches that we think most shooters would like to shoot. And to those that want something different we politely suggest that they put on the kind of matches they want to shoot.
I think the right thing to do is to survey members and see what people like. It's not like we have to guess what people want and have a debate. When we do these surveys, we find that the overwhelming majority of our competitors like shooting 3 gun as a sport. There are others that prefer the tac side of it and want something closer to real life scenarios.
I think if you were into the more tactical side of things, 2 gun makes more sense and I think you need a more real-life oriented ruleset than what most popular 3 gun rulesets offer. There's probably room for someone to host tactical 2 gun matches, CQB, or more run and gun events: just a matter of getting someone to put some on and see if they can build a core of shooters around it. There's no reason why we can't have both "gamer" style matches and Tactical style matches.
I think if you were into the more tactical side of things, 2 gun makes more sense and I think you need a more real-life oriented ruleset than what most popular 3 gun rulesets offer. There's probably room for someone to host tactical 2 gun matches, CQB, or more run and gun events: just a matter of getting someone to put some on and see if they can build a core of shooters around it. There's no reason why we can't have both "gamer" style matches and Tactical style matches.
This is awesome...The most utilitarian firearm ever invented is now a specialized firearm that never misses. And that’s why you don’t want to shoot it? This thread delivers...
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Nicely done sir..
Please don't take this as being a Richard, but no one forced you or anyone else to be MD's. If you think there's too much whining and complaining then stop doing it. Otherwise, learn to accept suggestions and criticism and drive on.
Actually 3 gun origins stem from 2 gun matches that were 100% about being practical with practical equipment. The idea was perverted along the way and is now a game of speed where tactics and practicality have taken a back seat. And yes, shotguns are specialist firearms that do well at shooting birds or clays and pretty much suck at everything else when compared to a rifle.
so....exactly how many 3 gun matches have you shot?
Northaways
Regular
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- Northaways
I recognize 3 Gun obviously requires more equipment and expense and the shotgun component is what likely scares most away and hence it’s not for everyone. But if we’re polling, I’ve been firmly in the 3 Gun camp since shooting my first match. Could care less about the naysayers here that don’t think it’s ‘tactical’ enough for them as that’s not the reason I play 3G. I play because it’s a heck of a lot of fun and personally think its a much better test of a competitors overall shooting abilities than any individual or dual shooting event.
Addressing the ‘it’s not ‘tactical’ enough for me’ crowd, have to say each 3G match i’ve shot the MD’s have all had slightly different rules sets and some, like my home club, use a version of IDPA rules which requires competitors to shoot from cover, only discard empty mags or retain mags with rounds left, etc. So as a MD if you want to make 3G more tactical, it’s doable.
Personally, if there were only 3 gun and no ‘tactical’ 2 gun matches to my preference in my area, you wouldn’t catch me sitting at home sulking. I’d get out and shoot whatever matches were on offer until I could put on the matches of my choice at my home club. That’s how it’s done.
In all honesty, different people have different expectations. I like a game as much as any other guy, but with time constraints, I don’t have the time to do realistic type shooting AND 3-gun games. A good two gun match can be realistic and a fun “game”. If I had more time, I would do it all. But training is a priority and “games” are not as high on my list. If I can combine both, great. 2-gun is more effective at that for me.
As for how the match was scored, it is all time based with misses costing SEVERE penalties. Most shotgun stages are 25 yards or less. Maybe I shoot with autistiically good shooters (mostly Operators for the record), but whether it is target loads, 00, or slugs, misses are rare. A lot of the courses of fire require a lot of physical exertion, and that seems to be more of a factor of misses.
In my matches, they don’t miss, but they are utilized at 25 yards or less whereas rifles are used out to 100 yards. Apples and oranges. The shotgun isn’t a good tool out to 100 yards so stages aren’t designed for it. We have done 50 yards with shotguns, but the result was the same. Very little was accomplished since most shooters missed the targets. We shoot some fairly small targets with all guns, and 50 yards was too far. But at 25 and less, nobody did miss.
Our MD designed a stage last year that involved 50m pistol shots, and 75m slug shots. It was awesome!
The way we generally go about elements of a stage that we know many people will struggle with, is to implement a maximum round count. The long range pistol and shotgun targets required 3 hits, but maximum 5 shots, so people don't sit there and plug away all damn day. Naturally the penalties for misses are higher to discourage the gamer types from just skipping them altogether, or just lobbing 5 shots out there as fast as they can without trying to hit anything
Our MD designed a stage last year that involved 50m pistol shots, and 75m slug shots. It was awesome!
The way we generally go about elements of a stage that we know many people will struggle with, is to implement a maximum round count. The long range pistol and shotgun targets required 3 hits, but maximum 5 shots, so people don't sit there and plug away all damn day. Naturally the penalties for misses are higher to discourage the gamer types from just skipping them altogether, or just lobbing 5 shots out there as fast as they can without trying to hit anything
And both methods definitely keep the run times down!
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