Most consistent velocity 22 LR Ammo?

[Maple57]

In support of your point... I was examining the results between Eley Tenex and RWS Pistol Match yesterday...

The groups fired with Tenex had about 6 out of 10 clustered nicely inside about 5/8 inch at 100 yards but with a few outliers.

The groups fired with RWS Pistol Match were more evenly distribted, but with an over all group size similar to the Tenex, but not better.

(Winds were switchy so catching a good condition was luck)

As mentioned ealier in this thread, the Tenex had the best ES, but the RWS Pistol Match were not far behind.

In reality, the RWS Pistol Match had an ES of only about 12 FPS, if I ignore the one slow shot.

According to the Labradar... the RWS Pistol Match should have produced a group that was superior to the Tenex except for the one flyer, but that was not the case.

So the RWS Pistol Match is a nice practice round but it would lose to Tenex in a match.... Not exactly front page news, but for the money the RWS ammo is a great value for practice and as a bonus it runs the same speed as Tenex.

 

[RabidM4U5]

One thing I would never do is chase vertical at long range based on a single outlier shot. It's rimfire, you know the velocity is going to vary, and it's going to show up as vertical in your long range targets. Shoot a group, center on the average vertically, then just worry about wind during the course of fire. Question is, are you shooting for score, or for "hits"? If for score, ES will ruin your day. Read the wind right, hit dead center horizontally... low into the 6 ring... you lose. A hit is a "hit" whether it's dead center or just clips the edge. If you'll stay within the "hit" zone for the given ES, the ammo is suitable for use. I don't shoot Tenex or Midas + in Silhouette, whatever shoots about 1/2" at 50 yards, usually SK Standard +. The vast majority of the misses are me, anyway.

Shooting 50 shots on one target at 200 yards can be very revealing as to what you can expect out of the ammo. Nobody is shooting "sub-moa all day", there isn't any .22 LR ammo out there that can do it. A 4"x4" dispersion area is very, very good. Individual 5-shot groups can be tight at times, but they are simply the result of "random acts of accuracy"

 

[Mystic Precision]

How are you measuring from the base to the ogive?

Same tool that you would use to test bullet ogive length. I like to tap the cap a few times to ensure it is well seated and the lube is pushed out of the way.



And this is what is possible... shot at 100m. "0" is just the arbitrary length where the bulk of the ammo showed up. + is longer... - is shorter.

Add all of this up and you get the group dispersion we see at distance. The principal is no different then what we test for in centerfire and seating depth, except we cannot control that length in rimfire... so sort for it.

There are other issues in the manf of rimfire which may not produce such a clear and dramatic improvement even when sorted but it is likely to improve things.

And no, I have no idea on the velocity... as was just discussed, Velocity is a crappy indicator of outcome so I don't bother testing over a chronograph.

Let the target decide what you should do.... seems to always tell me what I need to know.

Jerry



Here is another group using sort "0"... one went downwind but I feel for 100m, good 'nuff.

 

[caramel]

That’s more like a 22....250!

Wow this is pretty fast, this is the fastest number i ever saw on a crony.

 

[Mystic Precision]

One thing I would never do is chase vertical at long range based on a single outlier shot. It's rimfire, you know the velocity is going to vary, and it's going to show up as vertical in your long range targets. Shoot a group, center on the average vertically, then just worry about wind during the course of fire. Question is, are you shooting for score, or for "hits"? If for score, ES will ruin your day. Read the wind right, hit dead center horizontally... low into the 6 ring... you lose. A hit is a "hit" whether it's dead center or just clips the edge. If you'll stay within the "hit" zone for the given ES, the ammo is suitable for use. I don't shoot Tenex or Midas + in Silhouette, whatever shoots about 1/2" at 50 yards, usually SK Standard +. The vast majority of the misses are me, anyway.

Shooting 50 shots on one target at 200 yards can be very revealing as to what you can expect out of the ammo. Nobody is shooting "sub-moa all day", there isn't any .22 LR ammo out there that can do it. A 4"x4" dispersion area is very, very good. Individual 5-shot groups can be tight at times, but they are simply the result of "random acts of accuracy"

Love this test.... I think you will find sorting to really help get rid of alot of the hits at the fringes of your pattern.

Simple enough to do and if it helps you ... awesome.

Jerry

 

[grauhanen]

View attachment 250418

Same tool that you would use to test bullet ogive length. I like to tap the cap a few times to ensure it is well seated and the lube is pushed out of the way.

View attachment 250420

And this is what is possible... shot at 100m. "0" is just the arbitrary length where the bulk of the ammo showed up. + is longer... - is shorter.

Add all of this up and you get the group dispersion we see at distance. The principal is no different then what we test for in centerfire and seating depth, except we cannot control that length in rimfire... so sort for it.

I don't reload centerfire and don't really know what ogive measurement really means. Can an explanation be provided so that I and other readers may more fully understand what sorting by measuring base to ogive is all about? Do most .22LR BR shooters usually measure and sort their ammo this way?

 

[yodave]

I don't reload centerfire and don't really know what ogive measurement really means. Can an explanation be provided so that I and other readers may more fully understand what sorting by measuring base to ogive is all about? Do most .22LR BR shooters usually measure and sort their ammo this way?

sorting the ammo by length of the front of the rim to the part of the bullet that actually engages the rifling in the barrel, thus sorting for either a uniform bullet jump or jam rather then being all random as you just pull them out of the box.

yes the benchrest shooters do this, but as you spend more on match ammo the variance in this length is much much less and the ammo is more uniform in every which way no matter where they get pulled out of the box from

 

[Mystic Precision]

I don't reload centerfire and don't really know what ogive measurement really means. Can an explanation be provided so that I and other readers may more fully understand what sorting by measuring base to ogive is all about? Do most .22LR BR shooters usually measure and sort their ammo this way?

If you google bullet ogive, you will see lots of pics of what this refers to. Essentially, it is the wide part of the bullet nose that engraves first into the rifling as the bullet advances out of the case.

The location or distance from the lands affects the pressure curve of the "bang" and how that affects the barrel vibration. This affects where the bullet leaves the muzzle in the barrel oscillation, and thus how it flies to the target.

Like a guitar, you want the vibration to be in tune and we see this when the bullets hit the target in a small group... consistently and repeatably.

having varying seating depths will affect this vibration so we want to avoid as much as possible. Each rifle will have its range of sensitivity so you need to find out how much variance it can tolerate without affecting the accuracy you want/need.

The out of the box groups is around 1 1/2" at 100m which is plenty good for CRPS type targets BUT being fussy, I am hoping to tighten that up through sorting to keep my cone of accuracy as small as possible for those tricky targets at 400+yds.

If the ammo is poorly manf, sorting isn't going to help all that much. You are best served with well made ammo that already shoots well in your rifle at distance. This is just a step to refine and hopefully, tighten things up for the really long shots.

Jerry

 

[grauhanen]

sorting the ammo by length of the front of the rim to the part of the bullet that actually engages the rifling in the barrel, thus sorting for either a uniform bullet jump or jam rather then being all random as you just pull them out of the box.

yes the benchrest shooters do this, but as you spend more on match ammo the variance in this length is much much less and the ammo is more uniform in every which way no matter where they get pulled out of the box from

If you google bullet ogive, you will see lots of pics of what this refers to. Essentially, it is the wide part of the bullet nose that engraves first into the rifling as the bullet advances out of the case.

The location or distance from the lands affects the pressure curve of the "bang" and how that affects the barrel vibration. This affects where the bullet leaves the muzzle in the barrel oscillation, and thus how it flies to the target.

Like a guitar, you want the vibration to be in tune and we see this when the bullets hit the target in a small group... consistently and repeatably.

having varying seating depths will affect this vibration so we want to avoid as much as possible. Each rifle will have its range of sensitivity so you need to find out how much variance it can tolerate without affecting the accuracy you want/need.

The out of the box groups is around 1 1/2" at 100m which is plenty good for CRPS type targets BUT being fussy, I am hoping to tighten that up through sorting to keep my cone of accuracy as small as possible for those tricky targets at 400+yds.

If the ammo is poorly manf, sorting isn't going to help all that much. You are best served with well made ammo that already shoots well in your rifle at distance. This is just a step to refine and hopefully, tighten things up for the really long shots.

Jerry

Thanks, Dave and Jerry. I was thinking that it would indeed be frustrating and discouraging to be using top quality match ammo that costs $20 or more per box, as serious BR shooters often do, and still have to sort.

 

[Mystic Precision]

The higher the grade, the less sorting SHOULD be needed but that can be very lot dependent. It will of course be less then lower grades but it may not be zero.

And being consistent may not mean it shoots well in your rifle. In my rifle, the chamber is on the longish side and the top tier ammo doesn't shoot all that well. Not as well as the "lower" grades but which have a longer base to ogive length.

You can clearly see that in my test image... the "-" ammo shot worst in my sort and ANY ammo that was of similar length shot poorly regardless of the quality (and I was testing both Lapua Midas and Center X).

So start with decent quality ammo, sort for a length that is best for YOUR barrel... then compare to quality ammo of similar length and see if that also shoots well.

I am playing with some that is quite a bit different and I am finding some promising results with a different base to ogive length. So experiment away and see what you can discover.

Jerry

 

[Maple57]

I would bet we could sort our 22 ammo using a seating depth gage like this and do just as well.
Just put it under a dial indicator

Since I already have one, I think ill give it a try this weekend.

You can get it for $26 from x reload

https://x-reload.com/sinclair-hex-bullet-comparator-1.html

 

[Maple57]

View attachment 250418

Same tool that you would use to test bullet ogive length. I like to tap the cap a few times to ensure it is well seated and the lube is pushed out of the way.

View attachment 250420

And this is what is possible... shot at 100m. "0" is just the arbitrary length where the bulk of the ammo showed up. + is longer... - is shorter.

Add all of this up and you get the group dispersion we see at distance. The principal is no different then what we test for in centerfire and seating depth, except we cannot control that length in rimfire... so sort for it.

There are other issues in the manf of rimfire which may not produce such a clear and dramatic improvement even when sorted but it is likely to improve things.

And no, I have no idea on the velocity... as was just discussed, Velocity is a crappy indicator of outcome so I don't bother testing over a chronograph.

Let the target decide what you should do.... seems to always tell me what I need to know.

Jerry

View attachment 250429

Here is another group using sort "0"... one went downwind but I feel for 100m, good 'nuff.

I'm curious Jerry... if the POI shift is the result of your sorting, or if you were aiming at different places to get this result?

I assume you were aiming at different places for each group... is that correct?

 

[Mystic Precision]

When testing, where I aim is rarely ever where the bullets land... and I just move around the target so I do not block out my aiming point

and I am also tweaking my scope zero based on wind and where the groups form

Look at the group... not where it is in the target. When I do my practise and need to confirm real zero, then my impacts will match POA... in calm conditions

but that is later on...

Jerry

 

[TheWhole9Yards]

I'm in over my head here lol. I'll buy a brick of CCI SV and work on technique. Maybe revisit this can of worms in the future.

 

[grauhanen]

Is there a difference in bullet diameter between .22LR and centerfire .22 calibers? Is a bullet comparator made for .22 centerfire good for .22LR?

 

[Max Owner]

I'm in over my head here lol. I'll buy a brick of CCI SV and work on technique. Maybe revisit this can of worms in the future.

I have been doing this and found I am struggling to get my parallax set properly.

 

[RabidM4U5]

Love this test.... I think you will find sorting to really help get rid of alot of the hits at the fringes of your pattern.

Simple enough to do and if it helps you ... awesome.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry, I can see how sorting base to ogive may have some merits, versus sorting rim thickness or weight which seem to just be a waste of time. I did some sorting last night and was shocked by the large variation observed! The range was 0.765"-0.772" base-ogive, with a handful of outliers beyond that! I had to sort through at least half a brick just to get a usable box of 50 rounds having the same base-ogive length. I sorted a brick of BBM semi-auto and half a brick of SK Biathlon. Hoping to get out to the range in the next few days to test it out

Is there a difference in bullet diameter between .22LR and centerfire .22 calibers? Is a bullet comparator made for .22 centerfire good for .22LR?

No, and yes. Here's what I used to sort, the diameter of the insert is 0.210". It might not be as precise as other setups, but certainly my sorted groups of ammo are much more consistent than they came in the factory box!

 

[Mystic Precision]

Is there a difference in bullet diameter between .22LR and centerfire .22 calibers? Is a bullet comparator made for .22 centerfire good for .22LR?

My gauge is for a center fire 22cal. It should mean that the rimfire bullet will just hit the gauge at a different point vs being in a rimfire sized gauge... but we are not looking for an absolute value. I am sorting for what is the same, longer or shorter... then seeing what length/pile improves my results.

Jerry

 

[Mystic Precision]

Thanks Jerry, I can see how sorting base to ogive may have some merits, versus sorting rim thickness or weight which seem to just be a waste of time. I did some sorting last night and was shocked by the large variation observed! The range was 0.765"-0.772" base-ogive, with a handful of outliers beyond that! I had to sort through at least half a brick just to get a usable box of 50 rounds having the same base-ogive length. I sorted a brick of BBM semi-auto and half a brick of SK Biathlon. Hoping to get out to the range in the next few days to test it out






No, and yes. Here's what I used to sort, the diameter of the insert is 0.210". It might not be as precise as other setups, but certainly my sorted groups of ammo are much more consistent than they came in the factory box!

Perfect.. I assume you sorted to the thou? If yes, I would test at 100m/yds and do 3X5rds of each length. You will find a cluster of lengths which will average similarly.... 3 to 4 thou range seems to be what my rifle is liking. Hopefully, this is also where 70 to 80% of your ammo falls into.

Then longer and shorter that shoot much worst.

If you are finding that each length is about the same amount, that ammo was not well made and would be suspect in my books. The stuff I have sorted had a very distinct bulge in similar lengths... just like a bell curve... the stuff in that bulge shot best which also confirms that this ammo is what my barrel likes.

But I would first confirm that whatever ammo you want to use shoots decently out of the box. If it doesn't, then sorting is not going to make it competitive.

Jerry

 

[RabidM4U5]

But I would first confirm that whatever ammo you want to use shoots decently out of the box. If it doesn't, then sorting is not going to make it competitive.

Jerry

Yep, sorted to the thou. Both ammos will shoot reliably under 1/2" at 50 yards out of the box. I have a bunch of other ammo (Tenex, Match, Midas +, R-50, R-100) that I'm just not shooting until the weather warms up. I've been happy with the ammo for casual shooting in the cold weather. I picked up 3 cases of the BBM for $480/case, never expected it to be benchrest competitive but am very pleased with the performance for price. If sorting helps it shoot well in my Silhouette rifles out to 100m, I'm set. The following target was shot at 50 yards with my bench rifle, I'll be interested to see if sorting helps cut out some of the fliers.



This was shot at 100 yards. The BBM is made by RWS, it's definitely not junk.