Automatic usage

cyclone said:
Mainly a question for present and former military, I suppose, and posted here as it seemed the best place for it....:yingyang:

Genuinely curious as to how much training and how much "experiential" use of automatic-fire occurred in your experience (note: not in a "receiving" sense!); in a recent In Range Q&A Ian & Karl seemed to imply that, for general American infantry, training & use of automatic-fire was minimal (but it didn't seem as though they were talking from personal experience)... :wave:



Anyhow, just curious.
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I joined back in 85 and retired in 2010 so some of this info is dated;
Dedicated machine gunners receive a 6 week PCF (Primary Combat function) course just on machine guns and firing them. We learned about attributes of automatic fire and proper usage of the guns. In my day that was the M2 and C5 (1919 Browning in 7.62x51) Cone of fire, beaten zone, first catch, first graze, enfilade, defilade etc. When we upgraded to the C6 and C9 all teh qualified machine gunners had to update their quals.
This course finishes up by live range firing totaling several thousand rounds from each gun and mount covered under the course. Our dedicated MGs only fire in automatic. Generally short, controlled bursts however some situations call for sustained fire. Anti-aircraft for instance is continuous fire until the target is destroyed or you have to reload and re-engage.
The C7 can be used in full auto as well but generally isn't unless house clearing or under heavy contact. Again your situation will dictate use. Most riflemen are trained to use full auto again using short controlled bursts and based on the situation they're in. I recall firing several thousand rounds in training and again during live fire exercises. We did get the opportunity to mag dump on occasion but it's always the exception not the rule and generally after tossing a grenade into a trench or building. Basic riflemen are also trained on the C9 (Minimi LMG or SAW) again several thousand rounds as they're carried within the rifle section.

All of this is a broad overview and based on my personal experience. Individual experiences may vary. I hope I answered your questions OK.
 
Out of the 140 or so rounds you fire on the annual C7 qualification, you fire exactly 2 three-round bursts. I think that's pretty illustrative. And while I got pretty good with practice, I suspect the true purpose of the qualification bursts is to demonstrate to the soldier how limited the function is. The Israelis have eliminated the automatic function on their rifles altogether, though they use conscripts so it makes a bit more sense in that context.
 
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You don't need full auto until you absolutely positively need it right the #### now, and in no small quantity.
 
Bile said:
You're cool with frag grenades but auto is going too far? I guess the guy with the c9 won't be allowed to in the trench then. Maybe we don't need them at all. Turn those c9s into semi only? What if you ran out of grenades? Maybe somebody a lot wiser than either of us decided select fire was a useful tool.

If I had the choice, I'd take the select fire. And with it, I'd decide if I needed it or not.

My 2 cents.
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You are missing the entire point. Each weapon system serves a different purpose and depending on how they are employed, one will be more effective than the other. For example, in the trench clearing scenario, grenades are very useful. The fact that the weapon can be tossed around a corner with minimal effort/skill makes it effective in this specific task. Automatic fire with the rifle, on the other hand, requires much more training and skill to be employed effectively. It has been proven that quick aimed shots in semiauto are more effective than bursts, in almost every single scenario. Again we are talking very specifically about a select fire rifle, not employing a machine gun. Going back to your trench scenario, the machine guns serve their own purpose. They are positioned outside of the system to act as a support base to prevent enemy from relocating or trying to exit the system. In the section, the LMGs are used to support individual movement up to the break in point. However, inside the system, they become unwieldy and the rifle becomes more effective up front.

Regardless of all of this, you just need to look to any professional soldiering organization, even tier one groups, and see how little they employ a select fire rifle. That will give you the answer of how effective and useful automatic fire is, from a rifle.
 
angryeyebrows said:
You are missing the entire point. Each weapon system serves a different purpose and depending on how they are employed, one will be more effective than the other. For example, in the trench clearing scenario, grenades are very useful. The fact that the weapon can be tossed around a corner with minimal effort/skill makes it effective in this specific task. Automatic fire with the rifle, on the other hand, requires much more training and skill to be employed effectively. It has been proven that quick aimed shots in semiauto are more effective than bursts, in almost every single scenario. Again we are talking very specifically about a select fire rifle, not employing a machine gun. Going back to your trench scenario, the machine guns serve their own purpose. They are positioned outside of the system to act as a support base to prevent enemy from relocating or trying to exit the system. In the section, the LMGs are used to support individual movement up to the break in point. However, inside the system, they become unwieldy and the rifle becomes more effective up front.

Regardless of all of this, you just need to look to any professional soldiering organization, even tier one groups, and see how little they employ a select fire rifle. That will give you the answer of how effective and useful automatic fire is, from a rifle.
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this right here ^

to add to that;

to use full auto with a C7 you need to position yourself, aim (even if roughly) and by the time that burst is over your point of aim is many feet off from where it was originally.

full auto with a C9/C6 is much more accurate, and if in a sustained (prone/supported) position it continues to be accurate burst after burst... or is easily adjusted or walked onto target.

the C9/C6's can put down 50- 210 rnds (teaser - full belt) quickly but more importanly, accurately.

the C7 gives one burst sure, but you need to then aim again, and soon you're reloading, and exposing yourself time and time again, and for longer periods of time.
 
BernDawg said:
I joined back in 85 and retired in 2010 so some of this info is dated;
Dedicated machine gunners receive a 6 week PCF (Primary Combat function) course just on machine guns and firing them. We learned about attributes of automatic fire and proper usage of the guns. In my day that was the M2 and C5 (1919 Browning in 7.62x51) Cone of fire, beaten zone, first catch, first graze, enfilade, defilade etc. When we upgraded to the C6 and C9 all teh qualified machine gunners had to update their quals.
This course finishes up by live range firing totaling several thousand rounds from each gun and mount covered under the course. Our dedicated MGs only fire in automatic. Generally short, controlled bursts however some situations call for sustained fire. Anti-aircraft for instance is continuous fire until the target is destroyed or you have to reload and re-engage.
The C7 can be used in full auto as well but generally isn't unless house clearing or under heavy contact. Again your situation will dictate use. Most riflemen are trained to use full auto again using short controlled bursts and based on the situation they're in. I recall firing several thousand rounds in training and again during live fire exercises. We did get the opportunity to mag dump on occasion but it's always the exception not the rule and generally after tossing a grenade into a trench or building. Basic riflemen are also trained on the C9 (Minimi LMG or SAW) again several thousand rounds as they're carried within the rifle section.

All of this is a broad overview and based on my personal experience. Individual experiences may vary. I hope I answered your questions OK.
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Much sincere thanks, to you and to the others who replied!
 
Bartok5 said:
Presumably you had plenty of time to ruminate on the value of automatic rifle fire while manning a guard tower or playing IRED hopscotch while you were deployed to Afghanistan. Others did not have such a luxurious and laid-back go of things. My soldiers and I spent the majority of our time well outside the wire conducting light infantry offensive operations in the form of platoon and company-level fighting patrols, good 'ol Advance to Contact, village cordon and search, night ambush, and so forth embedded with the Afghan National Army Kandak we were responsible for mentoring in combat ops. Once the fighting season kicked-off at the end of May, it was "game on" with multiple firefights every day, for days on end, less the occasional maintenance day for rest and refit.

Thanks for guarding whatever it was that you guarded. For all I know, you provided a safe FOB for me to operate out of, and if so I appreciate the support. But don't make the mistake of thinking that your war was the same as mine, or that your experience was universal in its application because that simply isn't so. Some of us (eg. The Operational Mentoring and Liaison Teams) actually did perform full-spectrum, light infantry operations on a regular basis. Members of the Canadian Combat Teams that we worked alongside could say the same about mounted and dismounted mechanized operations, despite never conducting the broad, sweeping attacks across the desert plains that some might have envisioned.
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I could not answer better than Bartok5 has.

The saying "got the shirt and the medal" has a very particular vibes to it, and not a positive one but I'm not gonna start another "us VS them" argument because everyone played a part in this conflict.

A lot of Infantry lead operation were conducted while we were there, we walked a lot, we risked a lot and yes, we did fire our C7/C8 on different occasion for different reasons.
 
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