I've had many Pre-64s. I now use the Classic actions and have none of the old ones. While the actions are nice the guns are heavy/clunky. Again its personal preference. As far as price, the fewer available the more the market will bear period.
Post-1990 M70 action?
- Thread starter ninepointer
- Start date
No. Spring steel retains its springyness because it has elasticity. It deforms (bends) without breaking because it has flexibility. Hardness certainly affects elasticity, but you are confusing hardness with elasticity, and coming to an incorrect conclusion that springs are brittle.
Or do you really believe that springs are brittle? And that the springs under your car would be better if they were cast?
But the Pre-64 is especially well known for this. Mishaps which are simply startling to shooters of other rifles can be life changing if the shooter is using a M70. It is a mystery as why the breeching system was changed from the Mauser systen when the Springfield was designed. The Springfield breeching is inferior in every way but it was the Springfield Winchester elected to copy. How much better it would have been if they had decided to go with the Arisaka breeching system. Kimber did this and it was a darn good system.
I like the M70 actions and currently am shooting four of them but they are not perfect. If I'm going to have a brass failure, I hope it happens in one of the Remingtons. Regards, Bill.
I like the M70 actions and currently am shooting four of them but they are not perfect. If I'm going to have a brass failure, I hope it happens in one of the Remingtons. Regards, Bill.
With case failure the mauser action may offer more protection from gas blow back with their flanged bolt sleeves. To improve gas blow back protection on a pre-64 M70 a vent hole can be drilled in the left side of the receiver as there is on the right side. The hole (gas escape port) would be more effective if it could be as forward of the bolt head 3/4" or at least 1/2".
My 1927 M54, 30-06 has a vent hole in the left side. It was like this when I got it as well as the bolt handle turned down for scope use. Most later M54's had the vent hole in the right side, but some of the early models had bolt stop, trigger upgrades and gas vents installed at a later date.
I've owned and used extensively, pre-64 M70's since my early teen years and have never had an issue with gas venting. I currently own many pre-64 M70's , and use them all every chance I get and handload for a variety of calibers. My favorite being the 300 H&H with my hottest load going 3400 fps with a 150 gr. b/t, using 74.4 gr of 4350. My point in telling you this, is the importance of headspace in relation to safety. We all know how excessive headspace will shorten case life and how being complacent may lead to case head separation. If a bolt is replaced, headspace, naturally, is the important factor.
Regards:
Rod
My 1927 M54, 30-06 has a vent hole in the left side. It was like this when I got it as well as the bolt handle turned down for scope use. Most later M54's had the vent hole in the right side, but some of the early models had bolt stop, trigger upgrades and gas vents installed at a later date.
I've owned and used extensively, pre-64 M70's since my early teen years and have never had an issue with gas venting. I currently own many pre-64 M70's , and use them all every chance I get and handload for a variety of calibers. My favorite being the 300 H&H with my hottest load going 3400 fps with a 150 gr. b/t, using 74.4 gr of 4350. My point in telling you this, is the importance of headspace in relation to safety. We all know how excessive headspace will shorten case life and how being complacent may lead to case head separation. If a bolt is replaced, headspace, naturally, is the important factor.
Regards:
Rod
Gas escaping
Excellent thread, with a lot of good info from people who obviously know what they are talking about.
Ted, that is very scary to hear of the accident to your friend. I once had a primer blow in a 270 in a Sako, L161, the old model with the third locking lug. That was scary! An explosion in your face, but nothing hit my face. It knocked off the little extractor, springs, etc. It was carelessness on my part, I let the neck stretch too far without trimming, with older brass, but the primer did fit normally tight.
Ted, do you remember me, (Outposts and Bushplanes?)
Excellent thread, with a lot of good info from people who obviously know what they are talking about.
Ted, that is very scary to hear of the accident to your friend. I once had a primer blow in a 270 in a Sako, L161, the old model with the third locking lug. That was scary! An explosion in your face, but nothing hit my face. It knocked off the little extractor, springs, etc. It was carelessness on my part, I let the neck stretch too far without trimming, with older brass, but the primer did fit normally tight.
Ted, do you remember me, (Outposts and Bushplanes?)
Sure do! Great book, and the guys here would really enjoy reading it.
Rod said:
Not "may offer more protection", there is no question at all that the Mauser handles escaping gas better than the pre-64 Model 70. Furthermore, it does so without any modifications needing to be made to the action.
As well as the inferior bolt sleeve, the more serious flaw in the design of the Model 70 is that it vents gas along the left lug raceway of the receiver, rather than down into the magazine well. This is just asking for trouble, as escaping gas is directed towards the shooter's face. That is how George got his eye blasted with gas and brass.
Ted
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FWIW, most all Model 70 Classics manufactured from 2003 thru 2006 had the flange on the left side of the bolt shroud (except for LH models). This would presumably deflect any gases coming back thru the left raceway from hitting the shooter in the face. Then, of course, there are those who bemoan the passing of the firing pin stop screw.
ninepointer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
A gunsmith once said to me that those "classic" actions that Winchester was making before they closed were as good as anything they had ever produced. He said he wouldn't hesitate to build a custom rifle on one.
ninepointer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
Everybody wants to be queen of de nile...
Bishopus,
No denile on my part buddy
Just passing along something I heard, to add to the discussion. I don't even own a "classic" action, just a plain ol' push feedNinepointer
Not "may offer more protection", there is no question at all that the Mauser handles escaping gas better than the pre-64 Model 70. Furthermore, it does so without any modifications needing to be made to the action.
As well as the inferior bolt sleeve, the more serious flaw in the design of the Model 70 is that it vents gas along the left lug raceway of the receiver, rather than down into the magazine well. This is just asking for trouble, as escaping gas is directed towards the shooter's face. That is how George got his eye blasted with gas and brass.
Ted
I did say "may offer more protection" , not will offer more. ... But according to -- "Chuck Hawks" -- "Jack O'Connors" -- "Rick Jamison" ------ The Mauser 98 and the pre-64 Winchester Model 70 both shared the same good gas venting characteristics, with one not superior over the other. They did comment on the Mauser having a wobbley bolt when withdrawn, but having a slightly better floor plate release.
The pre-64 Winchester Model 70 was selected as "The Best Bolt Action Rifle of the 20th Century".
I can't comment on shooters getting blasted in the face with gas and brass from a M70. There's too many variables and other factors involved to pass judgement. He did, they said, would of, could of, should of, heard of, read about; who knows the whole story about the cartridges being fired, reloads, over-loads, headspace of the rifle, possible barrel obstruction. Same condition in any number of rifles could produce similar results. It's difficult to be the end-all, know-all on how poor a rifle the pre-64 Winchester is on gas venting when so many acclaimed experts vote it the best rifle of the 20th Century. The Model 70 did not become a valuable collectible that's sought after by so many for so few by being the Dog that some are quick to label it.
This is becoming a good candidate for the -- "Myth Busters". -- let Adam and Jamie decide. ....
Rod
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Not confusing either... Spring steel becomes such by hardening/heat treating the steel. this makes it harder (or more "Elastic" if this is what you choose to call it) In doing this, it makes the metal more brittle (IE prone to breakage) that it was in its previous state.
This is the trade off...
Speaking of Springs in your car, If you've ever worked as a mechanic, or mantained vehicles, you'd know your more likely to see a broken spring, than a bent, or collapsed one. Why is this? The spring is more likely to shear than bend beyond its "breaking point" Usually it happens in the first 1-3 coils as the metal is often thinner there than in the body of the spring. Having changed more than my share of suspension systems over the years,
You sometimes see collapsed springs on older cars, often because heat has taken the temper out of the spring over the years.
Question about springy Vs Brittle.
Why arent your knives +65 C hardness... Hell, they sure hold an edge, but have one fallback... Brittle. Metalurgy, and different chemical (or elemental) compositions have lended to a better mix of both... Which is why we can cast these action parts that had to be forged 50 years ago...
If you think you need an old style extractor because its "better" Give her... Whatever makes you sleep better at night...
If you think one is magically better than the other because its Forged rather cast, prove it...
Rod, your right! I'd definately take your opinion over Bill Leeper's facts...
Seeing as you see Chuck Hawks and Rick Jameson as experts in this field, I have to side with you. they are my hero's too...
You have a funny way of arguing how springs work. but whatever. Like I said, If you believe you would be better served with cast springs rather than ones made of spring steel, you obviously know what is better for you.
Well, an assertion was made that the post 1990's are superior to pre-64's because of "superior metallurgy".
You jumped on that bandwagon. You prove it.
Really? Show me on this thread whaere I "Jumped on the bandwagon"
I could care less... they're both good actions that could potentially spit gas in my face in the event of a casefailure... NO gun is 100% safe.
Funny way of arguing? Sorry, dude, atleast I can explain my assumptions beyone throwing around the word elasticity...
Educate me about metal... Please do...
I would just like to point out that it is sintered metal not cast ,which is a proven technology that most folks are driving around on this very day (it is used for a variety of internal high cyclical stress componants in engines) . I think that the consistancy of materials and CNC machineing are the biggest improvments in manufactureing processes of many items.
ok, right here.....
and ....
Evidently, I have been suckered into an internet argument with a gentleman who seems to believe that spring steel is too hard and brittle to make into .... ummmm.... springs.
well, hardly the definitive source, but wikipedia describes a spring as elastic and flexible. But they just throw words around right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(device)
From Wikipedia .......... A spring is a flexible elastic object used to store mechanical energy. Springs are usually made out of hardened steel. Small springs can be wound from pre-hardened stock, while larger ones are made from annealed steel and hardened after fabrication. Some non-ferrous metals are also used including phosphor bronze for parts requiring corrosion resistance and beryllium copper for springs carrying electrical current (because of its low electrical resistance).
Note the use of the word "hardened steel".
You continue to confuse the fact that springs are made of "hardened steel", with the assumption that if steel is hard (or hardened), then it must be brittle.
Not true.
A spring will of course break if it is bent or compressed beyond its design, but that does not make it brittle.
