7.62 NATO - FC vs. LC headstamp

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doowroh

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I just bought some new “Lake City” 7.62x51 149-gn FMJ. My main goal was to acquire a large-ish quantity of LC headstamped NATO brass for reloading. My secondary goal was a little bit of pew pew, which would then produce said brass for reloading.

Purchased in-store, from a forum sponsor.

The website advertising the ammo clearly states, more than once that it is “Lake City”, XM80C and 7.62x51 NATO. I specifically asked the guy at the counter whether it was "Lake City brass". He nodded confidently and said yes. Stupidly, I didn’t ask to open the case to verify for myself.

I get home and open the box and find NOTHING but FC headstamps staring me in the face. Specifically “FC 18”.
- No NATO symbol (cross inside the circle).
- Primers are crimped and sealed.
- Cases are annealed.
- Bullets have a cannelure.
- Bullets are not attracted to a magnet.

So my concern is purely from a reloading perspective...
- does anybody definitively know whether this FC brass is the same as LC NATO brass?
- do I have a leg to stand on when it comes to asking for my money back?
- should I ask for my money back?

Please let me know what you think? If the brass is the same as LC, then I don’t really have a problem here. I’ll just unload it and then reload it.

Inside the box:
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From the website:
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Not the same at all. if it's for reloading, Lake City brass is a much much better option and quite a good quality brass. FC brass will get you 3-4 reloads if you reload mild and 2 reloads if you reload hot. The primer pockets will loosen up real quick. Don't waste your time with FC brass... I'm at 12 reloads on my L.C brass, get 1/4 MOA and it's still going strong.
 
When military demands for ammunition are low Lake City makes ammunition for commercial customers. The problem is this ammunition may not be made to the same specifications as Lake City head stamped ammunition. And military Lake City head stamped brass is harder and higher quality than commercial cases.

Vista Outdoor extends deal to keep Federal Premium at Lake City Army ammo plant
https://www.guns.com/news/2018/01/26/vista-outdoor-extends-deal-to-keep-federal-premium-at-lake-city-army-ammo-plant

The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant — managed by Orbital ATK — in Independence, Missouri sustains its operations by prioritizing commercial customers when military demand is low, said Whitney Watson, the plant’s communications manager, during an interview with Shephard Media.

“If we didn’t manufacture ammunition for companies like Hornady and Vista and Fiocchi, we wouldn’t need half of our workforce,” he said. “So rather than having 1700 people we would have 800 people with a bunch of idle buildings with idle machinery. But machinery likes to run; it doesn’t like to sit idle.”
 
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If you haven't shot a single round, you can ask for a refund. They might refuse. They will probably refuse. So the question is more: how much do you want to return them and get refunded?

To be clear, if you sued them in small claim court, you would probably win the ground that they identify these ammos as "identical to the ammo issued to US military", which is absolutely false given how LC is pretty good brass while FC is total garbage. But it's a PITA to sue a company for what, 350-ish dollars? The options are, in order:
0-Do nothing, shoot the ammos, sell the brass for cheap on EE;
1-Ask the store for a return/refund;
2-Make a complaint with the province's consumer bureau (has a chance to go somewhere in Quebec or Ontario, other provinces mostly prefer to let consumers get screwed 24/7);
3-Sue in small claims court.

I'd do 1, maybe 2, but life is kind of short to waste a day in small claim court for a few hundred quilch.
 
Maybe Federal is just rebranding lake city.
They look a lot different than normal FC commercial brass which has the annealing polished off and is marked .308.
I'd track down some lake city brass and some commercial FC and do a comparison with this new brass.

Weigh cases empty then.....
Check for capacity. Fill the case with powder of your choice, weigh it. Then do the same with a piece of lake city brass and commercial FC. If they have the same capacity then they might be the same as LC.

If it is NATO spec like LC it will be heavier than the commercial FC and also have less case capacity.
If it does then (like the IVI I use) it will last a long time with reasonable loads due to its thickness.

PS I searched online and Federal is indeed manufacturing 7.62 NATO at lake city and heads tamping it FC without .308 markings.
I have little doubt your ammunition is indeed LC
 
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diananike said:
Maybe Federal is just rebranding lake city.
They look a lot different than normal FC commercial brass which has the annealing polished off and is marked .308.
I'd track down some lake city brass and some commercial FC and do a comparison with this new brass.

Weigh cases empty then.....
Check for capacity. Fill the case with powder of your choice, weigh it. Then do the same with a piece of lake city brass and commercial FC. If they have the same capacity then they might be the same as LC.

If it is NATO spec like LC it will be heavier than the commercial FC and also have less case capacity.
If it does then (like the IVI I use) it will last a long time with reasonable loads due to its thickness.

PS I searched online and Federal is indeed manufacturing 7.62 NATO at lake city and heads tamping it FC without .308 markings.
I have little doubt your ammunition is indeed LC
Click to expand...

I have tried the FC brass that came from the LC factory and it's still garbage....

OP, I would ask the retailer for a refund and find real Nato LC ammo. (it will be marked american eagle on the box like what you bought but it will have actual LC brass with the Nato cross and the year of manufacture on it)

WCC%20and%20LC%20Headstamps.png
 
So I've called the retailer, and I've also sent an online inquiry to Federal. The Federal web interface is utter garbage, so I may have to repeat my inquiry or pick up the phone and actually call.

VinnyQC said:
If you haven't shot a single round, you can ask for a refund. They might refuse. They will probably refuse...

...it's a PITA to sue a company for what, 350-ish dollars? The options are, in order:
0-Do nothing, shoot the ammos, sell the brass for cheap on EE;
1-Ask the store for a return/refund;
2-Make a complaint with the province's consumer bureau...
3-Sue in small claims court.

I'd do 1, maybe 2, but life is kind of short to waste a day in small claim court for a few hundred quilch.
Click to expand...

I called today. They were nice enough, but stated that all ammunition is final sale. The guy on the phone even looked up the item because he didn't really know much about the product. He told me what I already know, and that it's made by Federal, and that he had never heard of Lake City ammunition. He said that their website description is literally a copy & paste from the manufacturers website. :rolleyes:
After reading the website, he said "yeah, you see right there, it must be Lake City since that is what it says".


Hitzy said:
It also says "American Eagle" as many times as Lake City in the ad...
Click to expand...

You are indeed correct, but the website also says "Lake City" and "this is identical to the ammo issued to the US military" which it clearly is not. It's funny, the actual packaging says nothing about Lake City.


jhnvan said:
I have tried the FC brass that came from the LC factory and it's still garbage....
OP, I would ask the retailer for a refund and find real Nato LC ammo.
Click to expand...

No dice on the refund at this point. I'll have to sleep on it again. Im either going to push harder for a refund or maybe a store credit.
This Lake City in name only kind of feels like they're using the argument that a Binelli shotgun is the same as Stoeger.
I hope to hear back from Federal.
Otherwise I'll just unload it or sell it and leave a truthful, but unfavourable review.
I guess it's my own fault anyway.
Buyer beware. :owned:
 
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The CGN dealers are kind of loosey goosey with their sales pitches..on ammo
ie.. corrosive vs non-corrosive on the 7.62x54
Their OUT is usually that is what our supplier told us or must be a few mixed in..
 
And this retailer is a CGN sponsor??

They clearly sold you the wrong thing. I understand that ammo is final sale but when they sell you something different then what is advertised, the final sale argument is just a sh*tty argument not to make things right...

I'm sure you can sell it to someone who won't be bothered by the fact it's not LC brass and all they want is some pew pew.
 
I've wondered about this as well. I have a quantity of American Eagle 308/7.62 NATO brass with the same head stamp, FC and a two digit manufacturing year. I've done a bit of research and found out that Lake City manufactures M80 ball ammo for various commercial ammo manufacturers like Federal. Lake City's production lines have excess capacity for military manufacturing and would be idle for considerable times. So, the Federal Lake City XM80 ammo is indeed made by Lake City using their brass and components. Cartridges are loaded to M80 specs but the brass is stamped with the commercial manufacturer's stamp. Brownell has a pretty good explanation here:https://www.brownells.com/ammunition/rifle-ammo/lake-city-7-62x51mm-nato-149gr-xm80-fmj-ammo-can-prod110340.aspx

I've used this brass for my precision reloads and have had very good success. I would just use it and see how many reloads you get.
 
I read Brownells link and to me it is made to Federal commercial ammo specs..
Which to me ?? Is probably different then true Lake City Nato ammo
 
I buy once fired Lake City 5.56 and 7.62 brass because the brass is harder and has a thicker flash hole web. This adds strength to the base of the case and makes the primer pockets last longer.

Below is a cutaway of Federal and Lake City cases, the Federal cases are made of softer brass and have a thinner flash hole web. I had some factory loaded Federal 5.56 cases head stamped 09 and 10 that had oversized primer pockets after the first firing.

cYeTsDp.jpg


To sort the thinner and weaker cases a two inch rod was used to measure the flash hole web thickness. The thinner cases were tossed in the scrap brass bucket because of the higher chance of scoring the bolt face.

POsazjb.jpg


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The above images and information are from AR15.com and the reloading moderators postings.

To further test the Federal cases a simple Lee depriming tool was used, and if the primer moved with just finger pressure the case was scrapped.

m1PlERq.jpg


Bottom line, Federal marked cases are not the same quality as Lake City in my opinion, "BUT" some say the Federal cases have improved. I buy real Lake City cases and do not reload Federal cases from past experience and the work involved sorting cases.

NOTE, normally the lowest bidder gets the contract to run and produce ammunition at Lake City. And to offset the cost of the low bid they make ammunition to sell to the civilian market. And this ammunition does not meet military standards and is not used by the military. This is something started when ATK took over the contract and adding CCI #41 and #34 primers to charge the government more for the ammunition.

In Eisenhower's farewell speech as president he said "beware of the military industrial complex".
 
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The Way i look at it:evil:

When you get Older you Get Wiser ...... Next Time you will Check/ look closer.

Did you get a good Price on it ... Yes ... No .... ?

Can you still reload it ?.. Yes

Some people reload on the hot Side ... some people Do not

Federal has been noted that it could be softer than some other brass....
Do you need to load it hot??

You can still shoot it and ... then sort through the brass and get a bunch that are very close to the same weight/ internal volume and use that

500 pcs is not a lot of brass ... look closer next time
 
RifleDude said:
According to Lake City's website, all ammunition, military as well as commercial uses the same components and processes. https://news.northropgrumman.com/news/features/northrop-grumman-and-lake-city-army-ammunition-plant-a-proud-heritage-of-service They state that they provide all components and complete cartridges to commercial entities.
Click to expand...

The exact quote is "All Lake City ammunition, whether for military or commercial use, is manufactured in the same facility, utilizing the same processes and quality-control standards. " To me it sounds like they're using federal brass for federal cartridges. They probably use the same powder, primers and bullets (and of course, process) for federal cartridges as they would for military cartridges, but even that is not really sure.
 
just having some fun said:
The Way i look at it:evil:

When you get Older you Get Wiser ...... Next Time you will Check/ look closer.

Did you get a good Price on it ... Yes ... No .... ?

Can you still reload it ?.. Yes

Some people reload on the hot Side ... some people Do not

Federal has been noted that it could be softer than some other brass....
Do you need to load it hot??

You can still shoot it and ... then sort through the brass and get a bunch that are very close to the same weight/ internal volume and use that

500 pcs is not a lot of brass ... look closer next time
Click to expand...

Or you can take your hard earned monies and spend it at another store with a more honest approach in what they sell.
Of course one will have to be more diligent to search and find the details.
Federal .22 ammo is made by/for American Eagle in the same plant on the same production line, it just goes into a different colored/labeled box .
Rob
 
UPDATE:

I've learned a few things today. I did a lot of digging around, and re-read the shìt out of the online advertisements for this ammo. There are several Canadian retailers selling this product, and most of them have the EXACT same wording. I also spoke with Federal Cartridge Company in Minnesota today. Twice.

First things first, in terms of 'lawyer speak', I've discovered that in this instance, the wording "NATO" specifically relates to the caliber, or chambering, which is 7.62x51 NATO. It does not speak to a cartridge that is NATO approved or endorsed or headstamped or what-have-you.

As for my phone calls with Federal in Minnesota, the first guy I spoke with seemed really confident about the technical specs. He verbally assured me that my ammunition is made "right along side the ammunition that's made for the 240 Bravo machine gun". He said that they wouldn't go through all the trouble of annealing, crimping and use of thicker, harder brass if they wanted to make cheaper commercial cartridges. His words were that they are "exactly the same".

The second guy I spoke with didn't seem as knowledgable about the technical specs, but said that if the first guy said it was the same, then it has to be the same, and that the first guy is ex US military, and a huge ammunition nerd (my words).

So, I'm going to scrub any hopes of a return/refund and just suck it up. I'll "unload" a bunch, keeping diligent records to see how they resize/reload over time. In the next few days I'll pull some bullets and get some baseline case weights. Cut a case or two open and take/post some dimensions. I might also post some up for sale.

If anyone has records of actual 7.62x51 Lake City NATO case weights I'd love to have them for comparison.

Thanks for all of your thoughts and opinions.
 
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