Remington vs Winchester

Winchester has made a truly premier rifle cartridge in the 270. EVERBODY who chambered bolt action rifles has made a 270. It is probably their signature cartridge.
Remington's equivalent would have to be the 7mm Mag. Again, a universally popular round.
Both companies have adapted military cartridges and called them their own (223 Rem and 308 Win). Remington has done well commercializing wildcats (22-250, 25-06, 35Whelen). Both companies have come out with some real dogs (225 Winchester, 8mm Rem Mag, 284 Winchester, 6.5Rem Mag) and some which should have done better (6mm Rem, 358 Winchester). In recent years, both companies brought out stupid cartridges (I won't name them)which only (nearly) duplicated previous offerings and wasted R&D time which could have been spent on manufacturing innovations and improved quality. Regards, Bill.
 
I'l name them for you Bill,

Stupid cartridges can easily be identified because they end in:

WSM (Winchester Stupid Magnum)
WSSM (Winchester Supremely Stupid Magnum)
SAUM (Stupid And Ugly Magnum)
 
280 was developed becaus Win had the 270
7mm-08 was developed from the 308
7mm Rem based on Win 264 mag
6mm based on 257 Roberts

Haven't googled all the other cartridges yet but Remington sure borrowed alot from other cartridges.

So I'll give the node to Win.

Remember we are talking ammo and not guns
 
I would say Winchester and I hope they come back soon.... So we can not only have great cartages to shoot but shoot them from great guns as well. CRF actions..... all the way!!! Just my take on it.
 
The lists I see here are pretty comprehensive. The only thing I see missing are the US and other government cartridges that are also wildly popular to this day. For handgun cartridges, you might give the nod to S&W or Colt :)

Who invented .22LR?
 
The lists I see here are pretty comprehensive. The only thing I see missing are the US and other government cartridges that are also wildly popular to this day. For handgun cartridges, you might give the nod to S&W or Colt :)

Who invented .22LR?

People who cant use google:eek:
The common .22 rimfire Short cartridge dates from the period of the American Civil War, where it was used in a S&W pocket pistol, and it is the oldest cartridge still being loaded today. All .22 rimfires (except the WRF and WMR) are ancient black powder designs, and use tapered heel bullets. If you examine a .22 S, L, or LR cartridge, you will see that the case and bullet are the same diameter. The part of the bullet inside of the case (the heel) is reduced in diameter to allow it to fit inside of the case. In all other modern cartridges, the bullet shank is of constant diameter, and the case is slightly larger than the bullet to allow the heel of the latter to fit inside. The modern design gives the bullet a longer bearing surface, and forms a better gas seal on its trip down the barrel.

The rimfire principle was used to create the first successful self-contained metallic ammunition. Rimfire cases are constructed with the priming compound spun inside the rim of the case, which is crushed by the blow of the firing pin to ignite the main powder charge. This means that the rim of the case must be far weaker than the solid rim of later centerfire cartridges, and is the primary factor limiting the pressure to which any rimfire cartridge can be loaded without erratic ignition or blown cases. As a practical matter, rimfire cases are not reloadable.

The standard .22 rimfire cartridges are the .22 BB, .22 CB, .22 Short, .22 Long, and .22 Long Rifle (LR). Although the cases differ in length, all can be fired in a LR chamber. Rifles and pistols for all of these cartridges have an actual bore diameter of about .218 inch. The groove diameter (and the bullet diameter) is about .222 inch. The BB (round ball) and CB (30 grain conical ball) are shooting gallery ammunition, rarely encountered otherwise.

The recoil of all of these .22 rimfire cartridges is essentially negligible. This makes a .22 LR rifle or pistol the natural first gun for a beginning shooter. But, because of its broad application and the many fine firearms available in .22 LR, .22's are also widely used by the most experienced shooters.

.22 Short
The .22 Short is used mainly as an inexpensive, quiet round for practice by the recreational shooter. It is also used in pocket pistols and mini-revolvers, as well as in international and Olympic rapid-fire pistol competition. The Short is available in target, standard velocity, and high velocity versions. There is also a .22 short blank for use in starting pistols.

Bullets are lead (usually coated with grease or wax or copper plated), in round nose or hollow point styles. The standard velocity .22 short launches a 29 grain bullet at 1,045 fps with 70 ft. lbs. of energy from a 22" rifle barrel. As a hunting round, the high velocity hollow point Short is useful only for tiny pests like mice, rats, and small birds. Stick with the Long Rifle cartridge for small game hunting.

.22 Long
The .22 Long is becoming obsolete; it is no longer manufactured by Federal, Remington, or Winchester. It uses the same case as the Long Rifle and the same 29 grain bullet as the .22 Short. This has proved to be a bad combination, inherently less accurate than either the Short or Long Rifle. I am convinced that the .22 Long has survived for as long as it has because young or uninformed shooters think that it must be a hot number, given its light .22 short bullet in front of what they presume to be a .22 LR powder charge. I know that my father believed this when he was a boy. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

The .22 Long comes in standard velocity and high velocity versions. The latter launches a 29 grain copper plated lead bullet at a velocity of 1,240 fps with 99 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle of a 22" barrel. This is 145 fps faster than the Short launches the same bullet, but 15 fps slower than the Long Rifle high velocity load fires its heavier 40 grain bullet.

There are better .22's than the Long for any purpose. Certainly, the more accurate and more powerful Long Rifle should always be chosen over the Long for small game hunting.

.22 Long Rifle
The .22 Long Rifle is an old cartridge that first appeared in the Marlin Model 1891 lever action rifle. It was quickly adopted by other rifle makers and also adapted to handguns. It is by far the most popular and useful of all the .22 rimfire cartridges.

The .22 LR is the world's best selling rifle and pistol cartridge. It is available in target, standard velocity, high velocity, and hyper velocity loads, with either 40 grain solid lead or 32-40 grain lead hollow-point bullets. Practically every type of rifle and handgun is offered in .22 LR, and there have even been smooth bore .22 LR shotguns chambered for the rather obscure .22 LR shot cartridge.

The .22 LR shot cartridge is loaded with a tiny amount of #12 shot. This shot cartridge has negligible killing power and is nearly useless, particularly when fired in a rifle barrel. I have read that it is used to collect mice, shrews, hummingbirds, and other tiny species for museum specimens at very close range (probably no more than 10 feet, based on my testing of these anemic cartridges).

The target version of the Long Rifle cartridge is fantastically accurate, and is the basis for small bore competition from the local club level to the Olympic Games. Target bullets are usually coated with grease or wax, and should be handled carefully to avoid contamination. Specialized rifle and pistol target loads are available. These 40 grain lead RN bullets are loaded to a velocity just below the speed of sound, to minimize velocity loss and thus wind drift.

The standard velocity .22 Long Rifle takes a wax coated 40 grain RN lead bullet to a muzzle velocity of 1,138 fps. The muzzle energy is 116 ft. lbs. in a standard 22" rifle test barrel. The 40 grain .22 LR bullet has a sectional density (SD) of .216. This is a widely used and economical practice load, excellent for plinking.

High velocity LR cartridges are loaded with copper plated bullets to reduce lead fouling. These come in 40 grain round nose or 36-40 grain hollow point (HP) styles. For small game hunting the expanding hollow point bullet is a more reliable stopper than the solid lead bullet, particularly when body shots are necessary.

The High Velocity cartridge with a 40 grain bullet has an advertised muzzle velocity (MV) of 1255 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 140 ft. lbs. At 100 yards the numbers are 1017 fps and 92 ft. lbs. The mid-range trajectory of that load is 3.6" over 100 yards. These are Winchester Super-X figures developed in a 6" pistol barrel.

The LR High Velocity HP cartridge is the queen of small game hunting loads. The MV of Winchester's Super-X load with a 37 grain hollow point bullet is 1,280 fps from a 22" test barrel with ME of 135 ft. lbs. The figures at 100 yards are 1015 fps and 85 ft. lbs. The mid-range trajectory of this load is 3.5" over 100 yards.

Zero a scoped .22 rifle using this load to hit 1.4" high at 50 yards and the bullet will not deviate more than 1.5" above or below the line of sight from the muzzle out to about 90 yards. This usefully flat trajectory allows humane head shots on squirrels and rabbits at the ranges at which they are usually hunted. CCI Mini-Mag, Federal Classic, Remington Golden Bullet, and Winchester Super-X are all excellent brands of .22 LR hollow point hunting ammunition.

The latest development in Long Rifle hunting ammunition is the hyper velocity load. Typical of these are the CCI Stinger and Remington Yellow Jacket. These achieve higher speeds than previous high velocity ammunition at permissible pressure by using light, copper plated, hollow point bullets of 32-33 grains. This allows a muzzle velocity of about 1,500 fps and a muzzle energy of about 165 ft. lbs. The light bullet sheds velocity and energy quickly, however. At 100 yards the energy has fallen to 85 ft. lbs., about the same as a high velocity HP bullet.

These hyper velocity .22 LR cartridges are the best choice for a .22 pistol used for personal defence. From the muzzle of a handgun their velocity is about 1260 fps and their energy is about 115 ft. lbs. The Stinger and Yellow Jacket have achieved a one shot stop rate of about 33-34% according to Marshall and Sanow.

Whenever best accuracy is important, test any .22 LR firearm with a variety of ammunition to determine that particular gun's preferences. The accuracy of different loads can vary widely in the same gun. .22 Long Rifle high velocity and hyper velocity hollow point ammunition allows humane hunting of game up to about 7 pounds in weight at .22 ranges with solid hits in the heart/lung area.
 
Remember Pearl Harbour

Winchester rifles will be made soon enough. Hopefully in Japan:)

If the dark day ever comes, where the excellent Winchester design is built by the Japanese, then I will never buy one, nor anything else with the Winchester name on it.

I remember what the Japanese did to our prisoners of war, and their drive for global domination, arm and arm with the Nazis. Damn the lot of them, I say!

I want a gun built by union men on North American soil.

Big
 
If the dark day ever comes, where the excellent Winchester design is built by the Japanese, then I will never buy one, nor anything else with the Winchester name on it.

I think some Winchester shotguns were already produced in Japan, but I coudl be wrong.;)


I want a gun built by union men on North American soil.

I'd prefer a gun be built by someone that takes pride in thier work, not someone that is checking the clock to see when thier next union mandated break is.:p
 
Winchester is my choice. -- Winchester and Western Cartridge were originally competitors with both companies on the leading edge in their time. In 1931 when Winchester went into receivership, it was Western Cartridge Co., owned by the Olin family, who purchased Winchester Repeating Arms Co.and some of Winchester's greatest achievements were made under the leadership of John Olin.

When Winchester brought out the Model 1894, with it came a new innovative line of cartridges all based on the 38-55 case.
1. 38-55
2. 32-40
3. 25-35
4. 30-30 (30 WCF)
5. 32 Winchester Special

With the advent of smokeless powder, Winchester took advantage of the smaller bullet going faster by trimming down the weight of their Model 1886 and with Model 1886 light weight, came the 33 Winchester.

In 1925, with the introduction of the Model 54 came the 270 Winchester, the necked down version of the 30 gov"t 06 (30-06 sprg.)

In 1936, the Model 1886 got another upgrade and a new name, the Model 71
and chambered for the 348 Winchester.

In the early 50's came the 308 Winchester and the necked down 243.

The later 1950's saw the innovative use of the 458 Winchester magnum cartridge. This new magnum used the 375 H&H belted case head with a shorter but fatter case body allowing Winchester to produce Magnums that were somewhat equal to the existing long ones but in an rifle action length of the 30-06.
1. 458 Winchester magnum
2. 338 Winchester magnum
3. 264 Winchester magnum
4. 300 Winchester magnum

The latest Winchester Short Magnums is, again, another innovative design that allows existing magnums to be replicated in an even shorter action. The length of the 308 Winchester.
1. 300WSM
2. 270WSM.

Remington has been no loafer either, but even with the cartridges I've overlooked, I feel Winchester has been the leader.

Regards:
Rod
 
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6mm based on 257 Roberts
Both of these are from Remington and based directly on the 8x57.


280 was developed becaus Win had the 270
7mm-08 was developed from the 308
7mm Rem based on Win 264 mag
6mm based on 257 Roberts

Haven't googled all the other cartridges yet but Remington sure borrowed alot from other cartridges.

So I'll give the node to Win.
Yes, Remington has borrowed alot, but what they are not alone.

270 based on 30/06
264/458/300WM/338 on 375H&H
.308/.248/358 was loosely based on the 30/06
..... and wasn't Remington the 1st out with a short mag?

As mentioned before, Remington has a clear winner with the .222 case, based on no other. :)

.
 
[..... and wasn't Remington the 1st out with a short mag?


.

If talking about the WSM's and SAUM's, nope. Winchster beat them out with the 300WSM.

Winchester being first and also because it had slightly greater velocity is probably why the SAUM's are not nearly as popular as the WSM's.:)
 
Both of these are from Remington and based directly on the 8x57.




.

>257 Roberts was developed by Ned H. Roberts in the mid 20's

Remington made minor changesto the case and offered the commercial version in 1934

it is based on the 7x57

And if you look at the .222/.223 its a mini-me for the 30-06
 
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