Double Action Snubby
- Thread starter Ganderite
- Start date
I see reports from the USA that a 38 Snub with wadcutters is comfortable to shoot and produces pass-through body hits. Given that bullet placement is important, as is multiple good hits, a plain wadcutter load has a lot going for it.
I loaded up some Speer HBWC upside down, producing a huge hollow point. In my log book they are noted as 148HP. I load them with the bullet protruding from the case about 1/10". They are 990fps in a 4" and 910fps in a 2". Not comfortable to shoot. 158 LSWCs are 1000 fps in a 4" and 885fps in a 2".
I tested a Campro plated 148 (reversed) in a 357Mag, shot into water:
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Thanks OP for this thread! Until now, I remained in the closet thinking no one else had a love affair for these snubbies?! If I may, here are some of my favourites:
2 S&W's, a .22 model 63 and .22 magnum model 650. The 650 is a fire breathing dragon!
.38 specials, a S&W model 60 no dash, a Detective Special and an early Cobra
9mm and 2 .357's, Ruger SP 101, Python and a model 66
The big boys! A Charter Arms Bulldog 44 spl and S&W 629.
I don't reload specifically for any one snub as I don't compete with them. My general 38spl plinking load is 3grs Bullseye over 148 HBWC. For 357 cases I go 3.3 Bullseye over the same bullet. Not trying to shoot my guns or myself loose, just having fun. As you can see, I'm a big boot grip fan! I find my baby finger curls up under the butt of the grip for a comfortable and firm purchase. The 629 is nuts with factory ammo! Many find they won't get through a full cylinder before calling it quits. Strangely though, it is one of my most accurate revolvers?
2 S&W's, a .22 model 63 and .22 magnum model 650. The 650 is a fire breathing dragon!
.38 specials, a S&W model 60 no dash, a Detective Special and an early Cobra
9mm and 2 .357's, Ruger SP 101, Python and a model 66
The big boys! A Charter Arms Bulldog 44 spl and S&W 629.
I don't reload specifically for any one snub as I don't compete with them. My general 38spl plinking load is 3grs Bullseye over 148 HBWC. For 357 cases I go 3.3 Bullseye over the same bullet. Not trying to shoot my guns or myself loose, just having fun. As you can see, I'm a big boot grip fan! I find my baby finger curls up under the butt of the grip for a comfortable and firm purchase. The 629 is nuts with factory ammo! Many find they won't get through a full cylinder before calling it quits. Strangely though, it is one of my most accurate revolvers?
Attachments
I have a couple of those Charter Arms 44s. I will eventually try them in double action and report. They feel very smooth. Loaded hot, the 200 gr lead SWC duplicates a 45ACP. A handful in a light revolver.
My M29 is a 4". Would not call it a "Snub". Would not want to fall in deep water with it on my belt. But, as you have noted, very accurate to shoot.
I seldom shoot full power with a 44Mag. They range from uncomfortable to very painful.
My M29 is a 4". Would not call it a "Snub". Would not want to fall in deep water with it on my belt. But, as you have noted, very accurate to shoot.
I seldom shoot full power with a 44Mag. They range from uncomfortable to very painful.
I gotta get a holster that covers the trigger guard for my 4" M29 so I can shoot it in IPSC. Oh, and some Safariland II speed loaders.
Silky smooth action and wears Miculek grips.
Should make "Major" with 240 gr bullets over 5 grs BE with ease.
Silky smooth action and wears Miculek grips.
Should make "Major" with 240 gr bullets over 5 grs BE with ease.
We had some tough guys at some of the Mexican matches. Showing up with a plastic race holster that looks like something out of Star Wars could get one branded with a not-so-nice nickname from guys who really are "the real thing": Mexican Rural Policemen who drive beater pickup trucks and wear worn 4-inch Pythons in pancake holsters or a Beretta 92 in a yaqui slide. One doesn't want them to call you "Joto" because of your holster choices. Sitting in a quiet bar and drinking with them while they talk shop is eye-opening.
Mexican leatherwork is well known, and all the great leather shops are in Leon, Guanajuato only an hour and a half from San Miguel. But there were local leather shops as well, and some great shoe-repair guys who could stitch leather with the best of them. We bought the Galco DAO holsters for the revolvers, K, L or N frame that we wanted to wear. The DAO comes with a thumbsnap, and (AND) a tension screw tension system. Some have two tension screws, one up near the trigger guard, and another down near the bottom muzzle. The holster covers the triggerguard.
We then take these holsters once they arrive to a local leather guy who cuts off the thumbsnap and refinishes the parts that are cut-away to match the rest of the holster and carries on the stitching as if the thumbsnap was never there. This is one of mine here, holding my Model 28/23 (a Model 28 Highway Patrolman .357 Magnum remarked as a Model 23 .38 S&W Special Ctg.):
The holster has two styles of belt mounting: a regular slot through the back of the holster pad that holds the holster at a slight rearward cant for strongside carry, and an offset slot that allows an forward-rake appendix or even a crossdraw carry. Unlike in North America, crossdraw carry is very popular and encouraged in Mexican Combat shooting. It is one of the MOST comfortable carry positions for driving a car and since we went through that period where motorized bad-guys watched all the cars coming and going from the local gunranges and then started pulling up alongside your car when you were driving out to the range and threatened you with guns to try to force you to pull over -- generally we packed driving to and from the range. (No, this was not legal, but you have to take care of yourself when silly regulations favor only the criminals and the Police have been bought off.) Crossdraw shooters are placed at the end of any line so they won't sweep their partners in stages where several people are shooting at once, like in a P.P.C. stage.
The San Miguel Club Secretary fires the San Miguel/Queretaro verson of the P.P.C.* using her Fusion Arms Longslide in .380 Super Cal. If she had a crossdraw holster, she'd be on the other end of the line-up. Beside her, one of the Queretaro guys is using an 8.75 inch Model 27. There is a whole clique of guys down there using long 8.75 inch guns which are deadly accurate with .38 target loads but when loaded with hot "Heavy Duty" loads will easily penetrate car-doors -- which is a concern when motorized dipsticks abound on the freeways pointing guns at you and trying to get you to pull over. This, by the way, is a practice that has lost popularity once people started shooting back.
Since this is a snubby thread, I will finish off with this photo of my wife playing gunfighter with her Model 60 in her left hand and my Model 49 in her right hand, shooting the steel targets. She's not shooting high, it's just the recoil.
Hey! Here's one of me with my Snubby up on the roof of the house where we lived in San Miguel. The big church on the City Square is lit up in the background!
* The San Miguel PPC targets are made in San Miguel. 1,000 cost us around 120.00 [EDIT: WRONG! It was 240.00 US, I just checked on WhattsApp what we paid, and we got half of them for 120.00 US, other half went to Queretaro) dollars. They are the fullsize NRA B-18 targets, but remarked with San Miguel/Queretaro markings in the bottom corner. Also, a big load of center patches were printed up (2 sizes, the 9 and X ring and the 8,9 and X ring size, as well as the orange self-adhesize X-ring center patch stickers which, for the aficionados out there, is a direct throwback to the target on the backside of the door of the "office" of the Strike Team on "The Shield"). I bring a decent roll of them back with me everytime we go down because target prices up here make me choke. Yes, I'm that cheap. And I like the Mexican target better anyway.
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I should have clarified that mine's a K frame, and .357's a tad harsh in it. Not sure if I should shoot that in Major or Minor, or use a bigger revolver, or stick to semi, or go for an 8-gun. Unfortunately, speaking of Jerry Himself, the 929 will probably go down in history as the gun that killed IPSC revolver, as it's the gun most shooters seem to think you've got to have in that division and the gun you're going to hate because it doesn't live up to its hype.
And even on a 6-round 3-yard IPSC stage you can clean in 3 seconds flat, some other hoser is going to do it in 2.9.
I just spent half the evening reading the amazing Mexican revolver stories from calmex
This has got to be one of the most epic threads I’ve ever had the privilege to enjoy on cgn
Thanks to Ganderite and Calmex for all the awesome information
And to everyone who posted their super cool snubbies
This has got to be one of the most epic threads I’ve ever had the privilege to enjoy on cgn
Thanks to Ganderite and Calmex for all the awesome information
And to everyone who posted their super cool snubbies
I like leather and have a lot of it for both my semi-autos and revolvers. But - I find that in competition Kydex works better for me. For concealment in IDPA, leather is my choice.
Reading the posts by Calmex, I'm taken back to the days of "Combat Pistol Shooting" ala Jeff Cooper before it morphed into IPSC. The .45 ACP was King and you were scorned for shooting a 9mm. Mandatory reloads after 6 rds were required which leveled the playing field for revolvers. The auto shooters cried "Foul" so it was changed to require one mandatory reload somewhere after the first shot and before the last in a short course of fire. I was shooting a Browning 9mm at the time (14 rd mags + 1 up the spout) and the .45 shooters only had 7 rd mags at that time. 8 rd mags were a game changer for the 1911 boys when they came out.
X-draw holsters were once the holster of choice for many in IPSC. I don't know why they fell out of favour as I don't recall any issues with properly trained people. I also shoot Cowboy Action and many if not most wear one holster x-draw. All it takes is doing "the dance", a hip turn when drawing and reholstering.
Favoured holsters were the Askins "Avenger", Milt Sparks AT1, Davis, etc. All were leather. I had one of the earliest Kydex holsters called the Snik" because that is the sound it made when you drew the gun by snapping it forward. Retention was provided by a tab on the holster that fit into the ejection port. Sounds 'Mickey Mouse', but it worked and it was fast!
It might interest people to know that at one time, IPSC rules called for a concealable holster and every match had to include at least "concealed carry" stage. It was Canada that instituted this, a country that disallows concealed carry! Go figure ..... Once that was tossed and the game gravitated to "impractical" holsters, optical sights and 9mm "Major", it was forever changed. Jeff Cooper even asked for his name NOT to be associated with the new game.
I enjoy shooting against the 8-shooters who tend to push themselves beyond their ability, counting on their capacity. Once they make the first mistake, they make the next one even faster. In our practice sessions, my goal is to shoot as many "A"s as possible in the shortest period of time. In practice regard anything other than an "A'' zone hit as a "Mike".
In a match, by all means ramp it up, but in practice, if you can't shoot all "A"s, who's kidding who?
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Today I took the last of the 38 snubbies to the range, to try then double action.
The light weight snubbies are bit painful to shoot with full power ammo. If you carried one in your pocket and actually needed it, the discomfort would hardly be an issue.
The Cobras and airweight Smiths (M37 and M38) are all too light for lots of plinking with full power ammo. After today's test I shot some mild ammo and found it much nicer to shoot.
In looking at toady's results, and also the targets of the previous shoots, I seem to group left when shooting double action. The groups are much better than I expected - but to the left. I would have to aim at the right nipple to get center hits.
The Webley was an awkward gun to shoot double action - and I did not get a single hit on paper. And that is a BIG sheet of paper!
The Taurus is on a K-sized frame - and solid steel. A very comfortable shooter with real ammo, but I only got 1 hit. It is shooting very low. I will have to adjust the sights.
The stainless steel Rossi is a nice little cheap gun. It works.
Next I will dig out my 357, 44 and 45 little guns and try them, too.
The light weight snubbies are bit painful to shoot with full power ammo. If you carried one in your pocket and actually needed it, the discomfort would hardly be an issue.
The Cobras and airweight Smiths (M37 and M38) are all too light for lots of plinking with full power ammo. After today's test I shot some mild ammo and found it much nicer to shoot.
In looking at toady's results, and also the targets of the previous shoots, I seem to group left when shooting double action. The groups are much better than I expected - but to the left. I would have to aim at the right nipple to get center hits.
The Webley was an awkward gun to shoot double action - and I did not get a single hit on paper. And that is a BIG sheet of paper!
The Taurus is on a K-sized frame - and solid steel. A very comfortable shooter with real ammo, but I only got 1 hit. It is shooting very low. I will have to adjust the sights.
The stainless steel Rossi is a nice little cheap gun. It works.
Next I will dig out my 357, 44 and 45 little guns and try them, too.
Ganderite
Are you shooting with one paw or two? You may have too much of your trigger finger on the trigger either way.
I recommend getting some Brownells hammer springs and rebound springs for your DAs. The difference will astound you. The down side is that you may find that you need Federal primers to get 100% reliable ignition.
If I was carrying for self protection, I would not be concerned about a heavier DA pull as adrenalin would kick in. I'd also want the hammer fall to ignite ANY primer!
Back in the day we had several LEOs come out to our IPSC matches with their highly tuned, ribbed, heavy barreled S&W PPC revolvers and holsters. They had silky smooth DA pulls even a child could pull. All shot Federal primers.
First thing we had to do was waive the IPSC power factor as their HBWC loads were way under "Minor". It took THREE rapid fire rds to knock over a Pepper Popper!
Regretfully, we tossed several of them for breaking the 90* muzzle rule due to their "PPC Dump". They protested, asking what was the problem as the gun was empty, cylinder open. Some learned and came back with more suitable guns and holsters. Some even took the "Black Badge" course. Others did not.
Are you shooting with one paw or two? You may have too much of your trigger finger on the trigger either way.
I recommend getting some Brownells hammer springs and rebound springs for your DAs. The difference will astound you. The down side is that you may find that you need Federal primers to get 100% reliable ignition.
If I was carrying for self protection, I would not be concerned about a heavier DA pull as adrenalin would kick in. I'd also want the hammer fall to ignite ANY primer!
Back in the day we had several LEOs come out to our IPSC matches with their highly tuned, ribbed, heavy barreled S&W PPC revolvers and holsters. They had silky smooth DA pulls even a child could pull. All shot Federal primers.
First thing we had to do was waive the IPSC power factor as their HBWC loads were way under "Minor". It took THREE rapid fire rds to knock over a Pepper Popper!
Regretfully, we tossed several of them for breaking the 90* muzzle rule due to their "PPC Dump". They protested, asking what was the problem as the gun was empty, cylinder open. Some learned and came back with more suitable guns and holsters. Some even took the "Black Badge" course. Others did not.
I made a note in the logbook today that the Rossi needs Federal primers. I was getting about 25% misfires with it today.
My DAO M60 has the light springs and polished action. That is one more slick DA snubby than I need.
I used to have a slick PPC revolver, but I sold it. It was the most accurate 38 i ever had.
I was shooting 2 handed. Shooting left usually means I am yanking the trigger. I was sort of calibrating the guns to see where they would shoot if used in an emergency. I suppose I could work on shooting them better, but I have a Canik 9mm with optic that I am trying to master. I compete with it.
Anyway, if you look at the Rossi target, I would call that a "group". I thought that shooting a snubby at 25 yards would produce a "pattern", so I am surprised and pleased.
I have some 3" 357s, 44s and 45s to try next. As I recall, my M25 in 45ACP has a nice trigger. have not shot it in years.
So many guns. So little time.
My DAO M60 has the light springs and polished action. That is one more slick DA snubby than I need.
I used to have a slick PPC revolver, but I sold it. It was the most accurate 38 i ever had.
I was shooting 2 handed. Shooting left usually means I am yanking the trigger. I was sort of calibrating the guns to see where they would shoot if used in an emergency. I suppose I could work on shooting them better, but I have a Canik 9mm with optic that I am trying to master. I compete with it.
Anyway, if you look at the Rossi target, I would call that a "group". I thought that shooting a snubby at 25 yards would produce a "pattern", so I am surprised and pleased.
I have some 3" 357s, 44s and 45s to try next. As I recall, my M25 in 45ACP has a nice trigger. have not shot it in years.
So many guns. So little time.
I'm not surprised at your accuracy at 25 yds with your snubs.
I think that I reported earlier that I can keep all my rds in the "Down Zero" zone at 25 and 50 yds with my 2-1/2" M19/M66 snubs. I shot SA/Prone at 50.
It takes focus and concentration, but it's certainly achievable with the little guns.
I think that I reported earlier that I can keep all my rds in the "Down Zero" zone at 25 and 50 yds with my 2-1/2" M19/M66 snubs. I shot SA/Prone at 50.
It takes focus and concentration, but it's certainly achievable with the little guns.
Generally, if your double-action technique is correct, there should be no real shift in POI between double-action and single-action fire. However, snubbies can beat the snot out of your hand, and that can cause an involuntary flinch in the best of us. The problem of keeping the little monsters totally concealable and yet powerful enough to be effective is a constant battle that will remain on-going. We struggle SO MUCH in our Mexican "snubby" matches because people -- who should know better -- are constantly trying to show up to a snubby match with a "matched out" snubby wearing great big rubber grips (which are obviously going to be quite comfortable to shoot with using factory ammo or +P) when the non-gamers are using stock wooden grips and a grip adapter or some type of boot grip.
I should point out here that in the Mexican "snubby" course, there are two slightly different courses of fire to adapt to the needs of the shooters, but the courses are both out of 300 points (30 shots on the Mexican B-18 target with "The Shield" orange center). One version of the course is based on 5-shot stages and the other version is based on 6-round stages*. There is no "advantage" to one or the other, it is simply to accomodate the fact that some snubbies are 5-shooters and others hold 6. The Super-snubby events are also shot on the same 30 rounds courses we use for the Snubby events. You just enter and are scored as a "Super Snubby." And the time limits in all events pretty much force you to use double-action.
In my own case, I do not change my double-action technique just because I am using a snubby. I tend to "stage" the pull with a quick pull of the trigger to flip the cylinder around and lock it in the cylinder notch without pulling all the way through. I use the tip of my index trigger-finger against the grip as a trigger stop, and then I squeeze the last little bit through to hammer drop. I find this keeps the sights aligned. It can also be very fast once perfected and almost as fast as pulling straight through. If there simply is no time limit that allows such delicacy, I just pull through and go for it (such as in a "Bill Drill" stage, for example). If you have not already seen it, this video is worth viewing.
*Mexican courses have a pile of variations, from regular Mexican/Queretaro PPC courses, to "big boy PPC" courses (minimum 180 power factor to play**), and variants of the snubby match (pistol or revolver minimum .380 acp must fit into a box that is tight to close on a Model 10 roundbutt with stock wood grips), or the Super Snubby match (pistol or revolver must fit into a box that closes tightly on a 2.5 inch roundbutt L-frame with stock S&W wood roundbutt grips, or a 2.5 inch Python). These are followed by the Service Pistol/Revolver Class (Pistols up to a Glock 19 or Commander, Revolvers up to a 4.25 inch barrel) and then the Target Class (barrels lengths that would let Jack Nicholson's version of "the Joker" play). Small trophies and/or medallions in all of the classes. Now that our events bring quite a few shooters, we have more pesos to spread around and make them fun events with nice reminders for the winners.
Mexican shooting matches are big affairs and we work on growing them. The ranges are designed to accomodate 6 or 7 shooters at a time -- or are expanding current facilities up to that capacity -- shooting the same course under a concrete roof that keeps the range cool as the sun NEVER stops and it will really play a number on you if you can't get out of it. Ranges still being developed expose you to direct sun. They are killers to have to shoot on, and even worse for the R.O.'s, who must constantly be rotated. Unbeknownst to many, the concern for shade from direct sun stemmed from the constant debilitating effects on our cherished Range Officer corps, and all construction since has been to make THEIR lives more comfortable. Otherwise, if we keep nearly killing them, the "big matches" are just not going to work out.
Early ranges, or ranges being developed, are killers to work on under the direct sun THAT NEVER GOES AWAY.
We have had Range Officers sent to the hospital from dehydration in our early events, and the clubs now keep coolers full of bottled bubbly water and regular bottled water and Gatorade on each range (no Coca Cola), generally no charge or low cost. Both the Queretaro and San Miguel ranges now have at least 3 of these covered firing points, with separating walls of dirt between each point. Thus, on any one range, 6 or 7 shooters can be shooting the 7 or 10 yard stage of a course.
A 7 position PPC/NRA Action protected shooting station on the San Miguel Range. There are 3 of them currently, side by side. Two are finished.
On the next range just over the dirt wall, another 6 or 7 can be shooting the 15 or 25 yard event and on the last range over another 6 or 7 can be shooting the 50 yard event. Generally, each range can "turn over" 3 shifts per hour, or 20 minutes per squad. That's about 18 to 20 shooters per hour. A 50 person "match" requiring 60 shots per person takes about 2 and a half hours of running time. A "working lunch" is usually provided with a local taco stand vendor being invited to serve (taco stands are generally easily transported) lunch for a fee while shooting continues. If the "Service Class" was shot in the morning, the "Target Class" usually sets off around mid-day. That will run another 2 and a half hours. As that finishes up, the Snubby Class/Super Snubby event usually runs on 2 of the 3 ranges for about another hour and a half (less shots, less distance, quicker to run) with maybe a side match -- usually the mover -- being set up on Range 3. That can give a shooter a 150 to 180 round match day for about 800.00 pesos (about 50.00 bucks, which usually covers your water/gatorade usage and the after-match tacos and 2 beers and all the fun. Mid-day tacos are usually a pay-as-you go thing, but you'd have a hard time spending much more than 5.00 bucks and we choose the taco venders for their quality.)
Early sun shelters were tin laminate roofs over wood construction into concrete bases. They were/are convection ovens. You are out of the sun, but you slowly roast alive. We are thus going over to an all-concrete design that is more expensive but deliciously cool.
Construction is still quite cheap using Mexican labor and Mexican materials and Mexican "costs" and favors. Probably around 160,000.00 pesos per shelter finished rather luxuriously. Say 10,000.00 Canadian dollars. Of course, you get the non-Spanish speaking Gringo and Canadian members, or the richer Mexican members who unfortunately for themselves have little or no Political influence to help pay for that because there's no way on God's Green Earth they are going to get a permit or a Membership unless the Club wants them to. A true "quid pro quo" situation that works for them and for us. And yes, I say "us" because it was me who basically helped create the system such as it is. Several Canadians and Gringos wanted guns and permits, but had nothing to offer the Club and the Mexicans kept saying "no, tell them to drop dead.".
"What if," I asked, "I could get them to pay for the facilities by accepting increased yearly fees?" That worked. And continues to. Alternatives don't exist.
Talking to a squad just before commencing their turn at one of the Queretaro shoots. The sun is just rising in the morning and it's going to be hot. A cool long-sleeve shirt is recommended. These were the old sun shelters with the tin roof tops that cooked us all slowly alive. Winter, spring, summer and fall.
Both ranges use a computerized scoring program, and results from each squad are constantly updated in a cool "scoring office" built behind the ranges on both facilities so the people who are doing the scoring for us (usually wives and girlfriends) are comfortable and feel "spoiled". Members are encouraged to be VERY NICE AND RESPECTFUL to the scoring girls, and even to grovel if need-be.
Results and prizes are something we want to be finished with by as close to 4:30 PM as possible. We never make that, but we try. Some people still have a 4 hour drive back home to Mexico City after the match ends, and many work the next day. But the sport grows, and continues to despite all the problems and obstacles, because we make it fun. Strange how so many sports forget that concept.
Generally, I gave out the trophies and awards myself, no matter which of the two Clubs the events were held at. Now that I am in my 60's I generally prefer to use a stunt-double for any heavy lifting or dancing that may be required. However, if there are hands to be shaken or girls to be kissed, I insist upon doing those scenes myself for authenticy's sake.
** Which ends up being a real "minimum 200 power factor" course because we don't test your loads. We have some Pepper Poppers set to fall with a center hit out on the 25-yard stage and they MUST fall down or your whole score is zeroed.
I should point out here that in the Mexican "snubby" course, there are two slightly different courses of fire to adapt to the needs of the shooters, but the courses are both out of 300 points (30 shots on the Mexican B-18 target with "The Shield" orange center). One version of the course is based on 5-shot stages and the other version is based on 6-round stages*. There is no "advantage" to one or the other, it is simply to accomodate the fact that some snubbies are 5-shooters and others hold 6. The Super-snubby events are also shot on the same 30 rounds courses we use for the Snubby events. You just enter and are scored as a "Super Snubby." And the time limits in all events pretty much force you to use double-action.
In my own case, I do not change my double-action technique just because I am using a snubby. I tend to "stage" the pull with a quick pull of the trigger to flip the cylinder around and lock it in the cylinder notch without pulling all the way through. I use the tip of my index trigger-finger against the grip as a trigger stop, and then I squeeze the last little bit through to hammer drop. I find this keeps the sights aligned. It can also be very fast once perfected and almost as fast as pulling straight through. If there simply is no time limit that allows such delicacy, I just pull through and go for it (such as in a "Bill Drill" stage, for example). If you have not already seen it, this video is worth viewing.
*Mexican courses have a pile of variations, from regular Mexican/Queretaro PPC courses, to "big boy PPC" courses (minimum 180 power factor to play**), and variants of the snubby match (pistol or revolver minimum .380 acp must fit into a box that is tight to close on a Model 10 roundbutt with stock wood grips), or the Super Snubby match (pistol or revolver must fit into a box that closes tightly on a 2.5 inch roundbutt L-frame with stock S&W wood roundbutt grips, or a 2.5 inch Python). These are followed by the Service Pistol/Revolver Class (Pistols up to a Glock 19 or Commander, Revolvers up to a 4.25 inch barrel) and then the Target Class (barrels lengths that would let Jack Nicholson's version of "the Joker" play). Small trophies and/or medallions in all of the classes. Now that our events bring quite a few shooters, we have more pesos to spread around and make them fun events with nice reminders for the winners.
Mexican shooting matches are big affairs and we work on growing them. The ranges are designed to accomodate 6 or 7 shooters at a time -- or are expanding current facilities up to that capacity -- shooting the same course under a concrete roof that keeps the range cool as the sun NEVER stops and it will really play a number on you if you can't get out of it. Ranges still being developed expose you to direct sun. They are killers to have to shoot on, and even worse for the R.O.'s, who must constantly be rotated. Unbeknownst to many, the concern for shade from direct sun stemmed from the constant debilitating effects on our cherished Range Officer corps, and all construction since has been to make THEIR lives more comfortable. Otherwise, if we keep nearly killing them, the "big matches" are just not going to work out.
Early ranges, or ranges being developed, are killers to work on under the direct sun THAT NEVER GOES AWAY.
We have had Range Officers sent to the hospital from dehydration in our early events, and the clubs now keep coolers full of bottled bubbly water and regular bottled water and Gatorade on each range (no Coca Cola), generally no charge or low cost. Both the Queretaro and San Miguel ranges now have at least 3 of these covered firing points, with separating walls of dirt between each point. Thus, on any one range, 6 or 7 shooters can be shooting the 7 or 10 yard stage of a course.
A 7 position PPC/NRA Action protected shooting station on the San Miguel Range. There are 3 of them currently, side by side. Two are finished.
On the next range just over the dirt wall, another 6 or 7 can be shooting the 15 or 25 yard event and on the last range over another 6 or 7 can be shooting the 50 yard event. Generally, each range can "turn over" 3 shifts per hour, or 20 minutes per squad. That's about 18 to 20 shooters per hour. A 50 person "match" requiring 60 shots per person takes about 2 and a half hours of running time. A "working lunch" is usually provided with a local taco stand vendor being invited to serve (taco stands are generally easily transported) lunch for a fee while shooting continues. If the "Service Class" was shot in the morning, the "Target Class" usually sets off around mid-day. That will run another 2 and a half hours. As that finishes up, the Snubby Class/Super Snubby event usually runs on 2 of the 3 ranges for about another hour and a half (less shots, less distance, quicker to run) with maybe a side match -- usually the mover -- being set up on Range 3. That can give a shooter a 150 to 180 round match day for about 800.00 pesos (about 50.00 bucks, which usually covers your water/gatorade usage and the after-match tacos and 2 beers and all the fun. Mid-day tacos are usually a pay-as-you go thing, but you'd have a hard time spending much more than 5.00 bucks and we choose the taco venders for their quality.)
Early sun shelters were tin laminate roofs over wood construction into concrete bases. They were/are convection ovens. You are out of the sun, but you slowly roast alive. We are thus going over to an all-concrete design that is more expensive but deliciously cool.
Construction is still quite cheap using Mexican labor and Mexican materials and Mexican "costs" and favors. Probably around 160,000.00 pesos per shelter finished rather luxuriously. Say 10,000.00 Canadian dollars. Of course, you get the non-Spanish speaking Gringo and Canadian members, or the richer Mexican members who unfortunately for themselves have little or no Political influence to help pay for that because there's no way on God's Green Earth they are going to get a permit or a Membership unless the Club wants them to. A true "quid pro quo" situation that works for them and for us. And yes, I say "us" because it was me who basically helped create the system such as it is. Several Canadians and Gringos wanted guns and permits, but had nothing to offer the Club and the Mexicans kept saying "no, tell them to drop dead.".
"What if," I asked, "I could get them to pay for the facilities by accepting increased yearly fees?" That worked. And continues to. Alternatives don't exist.
Talking to a squad just before commencing their turn at one of the Queretaro shoots. The sun is just rising in the morning and it's going to be hot. A cool long-sleeve shirt is recommended. These were the old sun shelters with the tin roof tops that cooked us all slowly alive. Winter, spring, summer and fall.
Both ranges use a computerized scoring program, and results from each squad are constantly updated in a cool "scoring office" built behind the ranges on both facilities so the people who are doing the scoring for us (usually wives and girlfriends) are comfortable and feel "spoiled". Members are encouraged to be VERY NICE AND RESPECTFUL to the scoring girls, and even to grovel if need-be.
Results and prizes are something we want to be finished with by as close to 4:30 PM as possible. We never make that, but we try. Some people still have a 4 hour drive back home to Mexico City after the match ends, and many work the next day. But the sport grows, and continues to despite all the problems and obstacles, because we make it fun. Strange how so many sports forget that concept.
Generally, I gave out the trophies and awards myself, no matter which of the two Clubs the events were held at. Now that I am in my 60's I generally prefer to use a stunt-double for any heavy lifting or dancing that may be required. However, if there are hands to be shaken or girls to be kissed, I insist upon doing those scenes myself for authenticy's sake.
** Which ends up being a real "minimum 200 power factor" course because we don't test your loads. We have some Pepper Poppers set to fall with a center hit out on the 25-yard stage and they MUST fall down or your whole score is zeroed.
One of differences in Mexican Competition rules and the original IPSC/NRA Action rules is this one. It is specifically legal to break the 90 degree rule while reloading a revolver with the cylinder open. Once that cylinder is closed, you cannot be pointing straight up or straight down. Otherwise, it's fine. I realize the intent of the original ruling, I was there when it was made, but it is forcing a shooter to do something in the name of "imagined as opposed to real" safety that might potentially not work out so well in real life if a case rim hangs up under the extractor. We threw it out. There are no lawsuits in Mexico in which you could enrich yourself, and it works for us. Another rule difference that immediately comes to mind is the blocking out of 1911 grip-safeties. It is specifically allowed.
As an edited addition, I remember when we were working up the SaM-Qro rulebook. We met every Saturday morning that we could -- a lot of the top competitors from the two clubs and occasionally one or two from Mexico City or Guadalajara -- at the Queretaro Club bar. They have a nice bar at the Queretaro Club, well stocked, and decorated with the actual "bar" itself dating from the 1700's. The Club pays to have a fulltime bartender there onsite Saturdays and Sundays as well as on competition or practice nights. They serve a nice breakfast every Saturday morning at the Club, but you need to tell them in advance you are coming. Bacon, eggs, and sausages with coffee and juice. I think it's 100.00 pesos for anyone who isn't a voting member, which is about most of the World (including me, as they count a "voting member" as an actual property owner on the Club deed, and there are only a dozen or so of them). Also remember: Queretaro Club is a huge Club, with amazing facilities. 2 movers, live pigeon, live goat, 500 meter silhouette range, combat ranges, blah, blah, blah but it costs about 775.00 Canadian Dollars a year to join. It ain't a cheap Club.
Anyway, we were all seated around a large table having coffee and reading the English rules while I translated them and we hit the rule about the 90 degree ruling. Someone asked if that applied to a revolver during the reload. I looked up at the table, they were all sitting there looking at me, and I asked: "Who here has seen the movie 'The life and times of Judge Roy Bean' with Paul Newman?" A few said they had, most had not.
"Well," I said, "there's this scene where the Judge and his boys are sitting in a bar playing cards, and some hotshot lawyer-guy from the big city comes in and starts beaking off at the Judge about how he has overstepped the law in one of his decisions, and pulls out a big, thick law book and flips to a page and plunks it down beside the Judge and says: 'There, right there, it says you cannot do that.' "
The guys were all sitting there watching me, wondering where the heck I was going with this. "So anyway," I continued, "the Judge looks down at the law book, purses his lips like this, and then rips the page out of the book right there in front of everyone and says 'I never did like that law.' That's sort of the way I feel about this one."
That got me a chuckle. So we kept the wording the same as it is in the English version of the rulebook, but added into the Spanish version something along the line of: "this rule does not apply to the revolver reload, which will be considered to be safe if the 90 degree rule is broken on an either straight up or straight down basis (and not side to side) with the revolver cylinder open and the cases being ejected and reloaded. If the cylinder is closed with the revolver breaking the 90 degree rule, even in the course of a reload, it is a violation of the ruling and will cause a disqualification." And again: it's Mexico, and a Mexican rule. We're fine with it.
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I also have a model 49. The 49 is steel framed. The model 38 is the aluminum frame version.
Auggie D.
I'm in awe and envy of the range facilities and matches you describe, as I am sure are many others. Also the sheer practicality of the rules. That's the difference between shooters that can pack a gun daily vs sport shooters. It's fair to say that IPSC as shot here is a game that almost goes out of it's way to toss you out. It discourages many from participating.
I have no trouble with "finger out of the trigger guard except when engaging a target" and the 90* rule, but I have seen some pretty iffy calls. IPSC used to employ two ROs per shooter so it was pretty hard to get away with anything and they had to agree on any violation or the shooter got the benefit of the doubt.
I also use the' tip of the trigger finger index' for a deliberate shot in DA mode. In fact, with my M29, I never use the SA mode at all as I can index it so well.
I have no trouble with "finger out of the trigger guard except when engaging a target" and the 90* rule, but I have seen some pretty iffy calls. IPSC used to employ two ROs per shooter so it was pretty hard to get away with anything and they had to agree on any violation or the shooter got the benefit of the doubt.
I also use the' tip of the trigger finger index' for a deliberate shot in DA mode. In fact, with my M29, I never use the SA mode at all as I can index it so well.
Remember: most of us cannot "pack a gun daily" legally. Our permits are "to and from" a range, just like in Canada. We just do pack a gun daily, because it is the safest thing to do. All the laws in the World won't stop that from happening once people feel threatened enough -- and going after the law-abiding who are only trying to protect themselves instead of the real criminals leads exactly to the violence Mexico is experiencing right now. How's that working out for the Mexican rich? For the Mexican Politicians? For their families? Believe me, it's a real mess. At least it's warm.
There is no "Range Officer's" course in Mexico. Almost from the get-go, if you are interested in helping run your own squad through a stage you will be encouraged to do so under the direct guidance of one of our more experienced R.O's.. Always and everytime you will be encouraged to talk in an amicable, pleasant voice even if someone has violated a safety rule. No shouting. No yelling. No abuse. No excuse. Be nice: unless the person is a total nimrod, we probably want him (or her) to come back. We want him (or her) to learn in a safe, friendly environment where we understand mistakes will be made but we want them made safely. We are not there to penalize you or yell at you, we are there to teach you and nurture your development into a competitive shooter and hopefully Range Officer.
And besides: if you yell and scream at one of those tough Rural Policemen, they might just shoot you. Then I will have to help cover it all up so that the Club doesn't get a black eye. Just think of the favors I would have to spend to do that. The loss of confidence in the eyes of the Directors. The dismay amongst my peers. Be friendly. Smile. If you need to yell and scream to feel your own power, maybe don't consider trying to be a Range Officer on one of our ranges. It won't work out. You're in the Real World now, and it matters.
