.22 lr ELR ammo... this is going to be interesting.

To be good in the wind, you have to practise in the wind. Any improvement in wind drift by a new gen bullet is peanuts vs the feet we had to hold off target. With rimfire, if you get the wind speed wrong, no bullet is going to help.

If the basic lead match bullets BC is around 0.12... and the new gen bullet is around 0.2, look at the predicted drift for each mph at 200 to 300.

Maybe it will save you a mil... but when you need to adjust 4 to 8 mils between gusts, you need to know your numbers... and when you know your numbers, you need a set up that is going to track reliably and predictably.

Any new gen bullet will need to prove that under alot of shooting and conditions. That will be a big investment in development costs.

Jerry

The wind drift math is linear to the G1 BC.

A .12 BC bullet will have the same wind drift in MOA (or Mils) at 120 yards as a .200 BC bullet will have at 200 yards, assuming both bullets start with the same muzzle velocity.

You can double that to 240 yards vs 400 yards.... Same respective MOA for wind.

Percentage wise, that's a big deal actually.

Long range shooting is not about drop... it's about wind I agree, so a reduction in wind drift using the numbers from the example above has quite a significant payoff.

With current offering of lead bullets, about the farthest I've been able to consistently hit anything is 400 yards, but with almost twice the BC, this new bullet could extend that to well past 600 yards.

Higher quality bullets would likely improve consistency and reduce the frequency of those unexplained flyers.
 
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I didn't check all 9 pages to see if the matter of primed cases had been answered. I'll just leave this here....

ht tps://fedarm.com/product/22lr-primed-new-casings-2000-ct-pack/

Castboolits forum has some information as does the ASSRA forum if I remember correctly.
 
The wind drift math is linear to the G1 BC.

A .12 BC bullet will have the same wind drift in MOA at 120 yards as a .200 BC bullet will have at 200 yards, assuming both bullets start with the same muzzle velocity.

You can double that to 240 yards vs 400 yards.... Same respective MOA for wind.

Percentage wise, that's a big deal actually.

Long range shooting is not about drop... it's about wind I agree, so a reduction in wind drift in the example above has quite a significant payoff.

you are preaching to the choir... as a long term F class and ELR shooter, bullet drag has been a big part of the tech and development. however, you have to look at the limits as it applies to the target.

Using the G1 numbers of 0.12 and 0.2, at 200yds, you have a full value drift of 1.7" per MPH and 1.1" MPH respectively.

If the target is 10" across and it doesn't matter where you hit the target to score, you have quite a bit of wiggle room in misreading the wind

Say the rifle with either bullet is grouping 4" at 200yds, missing a wind call of 2mph with either bullet will still let you hit the target. If you miss the wind call by 3mph, still ok. Miss by 4mph and the higher BC bullet would, on paper, still catch an edge while the lower one flies off.... but if the hold is adjusted, we are back to a tie.

Are you likely to miss a wind call by that much? and if you can't read the wind that well, what is going to save you when the wind changes direction... or slows down?

At further distance, the difference is of course more dramatic but the target is also much bigger so you pretty much see the same thing. Will tech save you vs skill?

High BC bullets used in many LR shooting games is predicated on a very small target relative to drift/wind speed. the X ring on an F class target is ball park 2mph wide after taking into account rifle accuracy, shaving a bit less drift matters over many shots given how small the target is... and how high the scores have become.

of course, we haven't answered the question of how well will these bullets actually fly? How accurately will they shoot and how will they react in these stronger winds?

We have seen all sorts of high bc bullets mis behave in the real world so I will wait and see how these bullets actually shoot.

They are definitely intriguing and if they work, can be a big aid... but the option that fits in a mag isn't likely to have a huge BC advantage vs what is currently used. Remember we are dealing with transonic and subsonic flight.... pointy doesn't always work well at these slow speeds.

My gut feel is the reduction in wind drift will not be as dramatic as the shapes suggest... and that difference still will not make up a lack of wind reading skill.

At subsonic speeds, momentum plays a big role in getting to target in a straight line... The CE 30gr vs lead 40gr is a big difference and will be very interesting to see how it sorts out in the real world.

I will be very happy if proven wrong...... not my wallet.

Jerry

PS furthest I have put lead on target with decent accuracy was 520yds in strong winds. The goal this season is to figure out good accuracy at 500m
 
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CErimfie.jpg

The combo that is most interesting is the mondo big one on the right. Single loaded in a fast twist barrel... if it flew well, now you are making 500+yds shots very interesting indeed.

Jerry
 

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My gun shoots most factory stuff between an 1” -1.25” at 100 these 50gn and 40gn vmax rounds I put together shoot less than an inch. But when shooting skeet at 300 my hits more than double. I pull bullets from factory Winchester dyna points because they are cheap and I replace the powder with lil gun and seat the bullets with a die I made on the lathe.

What kind of results do you get with your ammo? Do you have anything more specific that could give an idea about how much "more accurate than store bought rounds" your ammo is?



Do you simply exchange the factory bullet with a Hornady 50 grain V-Max .224 bullet? Do you add more powder of some kind?

 
8 out of 10 on a 2/3 ipsc with a 20kmh left to right

He said earlier he was shooting CCI "successfully" at 350 yards. For those readers who don't know what a 2/3 ipsc is (and I certainly don't), what does that mean in more relatable terms -- i.e. the size of the target he was shooting at? That would be useful to put in context such long distance shooting in 20 kilometer per hour (12.4 mph) cross winds.
 
The wind drift math is linear to the G1 BC.

A .12 BC bullet will have the same wind drift in MOA (or Mils) at 120 yards as a .200 BC bullet will have at 200 yards, assuming both bullets start with the same muzzle velocity.

You can double that to 240 yards vs 400 yards.... Same respective MOA for wind.

Percentage wise, that's a big deal actually.

Long range shooting is not about drop... it's about wind I agree, so a reduction in wind drift using the numbers from the example above has quite a significant payoff.

With current offering of lead bullets, about the farthest I've been able to consistently hit anything is 400 yards, but with almost twice the BC, this new bullet could extend that to well past 600 yards.

Higher quality bullets would likely improve consistency and reduce the frequency of those unexplained flyers.


I guess according to Jerry all the bullet makers should quit trying to improve bullets and everyone should just learn to shoot. Sorry to say but good equipment always helps no matter what you are doing.
 
He said earlier he was shooting CCI "successfully" at 350 yards. For those readers who don't know what a 2/3 ipsc is (and I certainly don't), what does that mean in more relatable terms -- i.e. the size of the target he was shooting at? That would be useful to put in context such long distance shooting in 20 kilometer per hour (12.4 mph) cross winds.

Its roughly 11 3/4" wide and 19 3/4" tall.
 
At subsonic speeds, momentum plays a big role in getting to target in a straight line... The CE 30gr vs lead 40gr is a big difference and will be very interesting to see how it sorts out in the real world.

Serious question, because I don't know the answer: Why stick to subsonic? I know why we do it now, but what are the pitfalls of changing things up?

We currently have a wide variety of 22LR ammuntion, from very slow to quite fast. One thing that is fairly typical though through all varieties is the size/profile/material of the bullet. The subsonic "standard velocity" currently rules because that is the speed that best suites that bullet type - but, we're not talking about using the same bullet. If we're talking about switching to a new bullet that does better with higher velocities, what's stopping us from pushing them faster?

Are we worried about de-stabilization as it crosses back through to subsonic? How bad would it be?
 
you are preaching to the choir... as a long term F class and ELR shooter, bullet drag has been a big part of the tech and development. however, you have to look at the limits as it applies to the target.

Using the G1 numbers of 0.12 and 0.2, at 200yds, you have a full value drift of 1.7" per MPH and 1.1" MPH respectively.

If the target is 10" across and it doesn't matter where you hit the target to score, you have quite a bit of wiggle room in misreading the wind

Hang on a minute Gerry...

Your numbers are a little misleading. Keep in mind that I have also been shooting F Class for a very long time BTW. I shot with the Chou brother before they could shoot and coached them along in the early days.

Your example references a 1 MPH wind. and you need to multiply that by the probable range of wind speed.

So assuming its running from 4 to 10 MPH at full value 3 o'clock. 1.7" now its 1.7x4=6.8 to 1.7x10=17 compared to 1.1x4=4.4 to 1.1x10= 11,

So now we are talking about a range of 6.8" to 17" compared to 4.4" to 11".

I suspect you are down playing the value of the BC difference because of the small numerical difference as opposed to the percentage of difference between the two BC values. What I mean to say is that a .460 BC vs a .510 is not all that much of a percentage change, but the same spread of .08 to .13 is actually quite significant.
 
Serious question, because I don't know the answer: Why stick to subsonic? I know why we do it now, but what are the pitfalls of changing things up?

We currently have a wide variety of 22LR ammuntion, from very slow to quite fast. One thing that is fairly typical though through all varieties is the size/profile/material of the bullet. The subsonic "standard velocity" currently rules because that is the speed that best suites that bullet type - but, we're not talking about using the same bullet. If we're talking about switching to a new bullet that does better with higher velocities, what's stopping us from pushing them faster?

Are we worried about de-stabilization as it crosses back through to subsonic? How bad would it be?

Some readers may not be as familiar with the reasons why .22LR ammo is as referred to above. A little information on that is offered below as well as some observations regarding the feasibility of "changing things up" by using a new bullet design at velocities other than "subsonic". (Note that the term "subsonic," is often used interchangeably with "standard velocity" and I'll use the latter so as to avoid confusion with some varieties of subsonic ammo that are "extra quiet" because of their very low MV's.)

Standard velocity (SV) ammo is usually under 1100 fps, although individual rounds may be faster or slower. It remains below the speed of sound for its entire journey to the target down range. It never is supersonic and never falls into the transonic zone. The same is largely true for high velocity (HV) ammo, which is typically a few hundred feet per second faster than SV ammo. There are some hyper velocity .22LR ammos, often over 1400 fps, which do start at supersonic velocities and fall into the transonic zone as they fly down range.



Some of the difficulties experienced by bullets in the transonic zone is explained below



From h t t p s://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/09/17/extreme-long-range-tips-ballistics-time-of-flight/

The long and short of it seems to be that when it comes to accuracy it is desirable to have bullets remain above the transonic zone or to never exceed it. Since hyper velocity .22LR ammo will slow down and enter the transonic zone on its way down range, it is preferable not to use such ammo, that is ammo that has a muzzle velocity above transonic velocities but which will inevitably slow down.

Currently the most consistent and hence most accurate .22LR ammo is standard velocity match ammo, such as that made by one of the big three match ammo makers -- Eley, Lapua, or RWS. High velocity ammo that is made with the same qualities as the best SV match ammo does not exist. Furthermore, it's worth noting that SV ammo drifts less in a crosswind than HV ammo. In short, as things stand now match quality SV .22LR ammo is more accurate than any HV ammo.

******

Perhaps a new bullet design can have better results than the current lead round nose .22LR bullet. Two considerations must be kept in mind. To avoid transonic turbulence, such a bullet would have to remain above transonic velocities out to 300 yards or more in order to be effective. The alternative is that it never exceeds supersonic velocities so that it can remain within or below the transonic zone.

In any event, the nature of .22LR casings and chambers make it unlikely that new ammo with a new bullet can be made to have MV's significantly different than the current varieties of .22LR ammo. It is doubtful that any .22LR casing can produce a MV that is sufficiently high so that downrange beyond 150 or 200 yards it is still above the transonic zone. (As an aside, current .22LR bullets, whether SV or HV, retain only about 70% of the initial MV at 200 yards.) I don't know if a differently-shaped bullet like the Cutting Edge one can retain enough velocity at 200 yards to remain above transonic velocities. Perhaps a new bullet can remain above the transonic zone. I don't know, but I'm skeptical because there are very real limitations on what is possible with a .22LR casing and chamber. A new design of the casing and chamber may be necessary, but then it wouldn't be .22LR as we know it.

The second alternative referred to above is that a new ammo never exceeds supersonic velocities. Such a new ammo with a new bullet design could retain its velocity at a higher rate than current .22LR bullets, which would translate into less drop. Perhaps it could also experience less wind drift than current .22LR bullets. In any case, it is unclear whether the pointy design of the current visualization of the new magic bullet is good for standard velocity ammo.

The important thing, however, is that in order to be better than what is currently available in the form of the best match quality .22LR ammo, it must be made to the same quality standards, with the same levels of consistency in muzzle velocity. Wide extreme spreads of MV are detrimental to accuracy, especially as range increases. Such ammo would not be any more affordable than currently available top quality match ammo. If new bullets such as those planned by Cutting Edge are themselves a significant increase in cost, then any new ammo with new bullets would be even more expensive than Tenex or Midas +. Looking at the Cutting Edge website, the prices for current .224 bullets show that they start at about $36 USD for 50 -- or about $0.72 each. Of course the new .22LR Cutting Edge bullets may be much less costly.

I don't know what level of accuracy is required in ELR shooting, but it's obviously not MOA. Perhaps it's quite achievable with current .22LR ammo, depending of course on the rifle, the shooter, and the shooter's ability to understand and adapt to the conditions. Would a new magic bullet such as that proposed by Cutting Edge be significantly better than what is currently available? Perhaps. But it would certainly not be any less expensive than ammo like Tenex or Midas +. The question remains whether a new and improved ammo, which has many of the characteristics of centerfire ammo but with rimmed priming, would necessitate a newly designed chamber. But then that would no longer be .22LR.
 
Serious question, because I don't know the answer: Why stick to subsonic? I know why we do it now, but what are the pitfalls of changing things up?

We currently have a wide variety of 22LR ammuntion, from very slow to quite fast. One thing that is fairly typical though through all varieties is the size/profile/material of the bullet. The subsonic "standard velocity" currently rules because that is the speed that best suites that bullet type - but, we're not talking about using the same bullet. If we're talking about switching to a new bullet that does better with higher velocities, what's stopping us from pushing them faster?

Are we worried about de-stabilization as it crosses back through to subsonic? How bad would it be?

There are bullet designs that are not affected much by the transition from super to subsonic. See my photo of the bullets in post #21. Modern, boat tail, pointy bullets are no advantage, and are actually a disadvantage.

Our type of competition is, to my knowledge, the only shooting done for accuracy where the bullet is in the nasty transonic zone the entire time. These bullets are stable and accurate from 100 to 1000 yards. What we shoot are basically giant .22LR, but we have much larger case capacities so achieving low single digit SD's is easy-peasy.

Modern rifle shooters tend to write off the BPTR world, but they are a lot more accurate than is generally believed. Here is a 10 shot MOA group at 300 yards shot with this type of bullet. I used the same rifle and load to set the BPTRA 1000 yard record last year.

Shiloh300.jpg



Obviously the tiny .22LR case will have difficulty achieving really consistent velocities for longer ranges, but I'm pretty sure that this type of bullet is what would be needed.

Chris.
 
Obviously the tiny .22LR case will have difficulty achieving really consistent velocities for longer ranges, but I'm pretty sure that this type of bullet is what would be needed.

Chris.

Keep in mind that the vertical spread is affected by the BC.

A higher BC will get there faster so the vertical offset of speed variation is proportionately less.
 
Hang on a minute Gerry...

Your numbers are a little misleading. Keep in mind that I have also been shooting F Class for a very long time BTW. I shot with the Chou brother before they could shoot and coached them along in the early days.

Your example references a 1 MPH wind. and you need to multiply that by the probable range of wind speed.

So assuming its running from 4 to 10 MPH at full value 3 o'clock. 1.7" now its 1.7x4=6.8 to 1.7x10=17 compared to 1.1x4=4.4 to 1.1x10= 11,

So now we are talking about a range of 6.8" to 17" compared to 4.4" to 11".

I suspect you are down playing the value of the BC difference because of the small numerical difference as opposed to the percentage of difference between the two BC values. What I mean to say is that a .460 BC vs a .510 is not all that much of a percentage change, but the same spread of .08 to .13 is actually quite significant.

I understand your point and it only works IF we shoot at a constant rate and do not adjust our hold. Wind reading is an 'instantaneous' decision. Given the time of flight, the wind we are guessing on is the same to the target (at least that is the hope)... obviously, we can misjudge this or there can be sudden gusts but even on a really variable day, wind takes time to change and you pick your poison and pull the trigger.

The role of the MPH is to illustrate the effect within the limits of what a shooter could estimate at. The goal of good wind reading is to figure out a wind value so that your error is still within the confines of the target. Whether it is blowing 2mph or 35mph, knowing the DELTA value is what matters.

example... if a 2mph mis read still puts you on target, if you guess 2mph and it is actually 2 to 4mph, you hit. If you guess 35mph and it is 33mph, you still hit. It makes no difference what the main CONSTANT value is... it is the change or DELTA over the time of flight that screws you up.

And yes, you are adjusting your aim for the new wind you are about to shoot into. In Kamloops, the range of wind was 3.5mils to approaching 8mils in the peak. You don't just hold the same wind and keep shooting. You decide it is a 3.5 mil hold, shoot.... next shot it looks like a 6mil hold, shoot. as long as the error of your wind guess is within the confines of the target, you hit

If you are merely shooting into your wind bracket with a single hold, you are not going to be scoring very well on target... and that is NOT good wind reading.

So if you know the wind... you can adjust for that regardless of what you are shooting. Bullet BC makes that calculation more forgiving.... it will not stop you from blowing out the target when facing big wind changes.

however, I am a techie and if a bullet can help me gain a point here and there, you better believe I am going to investigate.

Jerry
 
Serious question, because I don't know the answer: Why stick to subsonic? I know why we do it now, but what are the pitfalls of changing things up?

We currently have a wide variety of 22LR ammuntion, from very slow to quite fast. One thing that is fairly typical though through all varieties is the size/profile/material of the bullet. The subsonic "standard velocity" currently rules because that is the speed that best suites that bullet type - but, we're not talking about using the same bullet. If we're talking about switching to a new bullet that does better with higher velocities, what's stopping us from pushing them faster?

Are we worried about de-stabilization as it crosses back through to subsonic? How bad would it be?

To see how bad transonic transistion can be, look at the Sierra 30cal 168gr MK. They can tumble when they slow down. For some bullets, drag goes WAY up and for others drag and accuracy go for a dump. They are simply wobbling too much to hit accurately.

The limit of the 22lr is the case and operating pressures. You just don't get to hotrod this cartridge. With a SAAMI peak of 24,000psi and a very fragile case, I think it will be very hard to get a bullet fast enough to stay supersonic to say 300m... forget about 500m. Then to engineer a bullet that will ALWAYS transistion well is likely more headache then it is worth.

Then do all this and fit in a standard rimfire mag? I would be very impressed if someone figured it out.

For the mag fed option, I continue to feel the real world difference in drift for the PRS game isn't going to be big enough to justify the costs. For a single shot, fully optimised set up for ELR shooting, there could be alot of opportunities there.

But you gotta really really want to shoot far with a tough set up.....
Jerry
 
Great vid... we do know how to make bullets that will go from supersonic to subsonic without fuss. The militaries of the world have shown us the way.

BUT, the BCs of those shapes are no where near as ###y as the current gen of pointy spears popular in many shooting games.

As long as the task allows you to stay supersonic to target, the quest for better BC with stability is the goal. For the ELR game where you will go subsonic, those high BC shapes may not be ideal.

And if you never go supersonic, the type of desired shape changes altogether. As was also discussed in the video, at subsonic speeds MASS is your friend

Jerry
 
He said earlier he was shooting CCI "successfully" at 350 yards. For those readers who don't know what a 2/3 ipsc is (and I certainly don't), what does that mean in more relatable terms -- i.e. the size of the target he was shooting at? That would be useful to put in context such long distance shooting in 20 kilometer per hour (12.4 mph) cross winds.
Yes we have done 350 and 400 yards, 300 was very repeatable, 350 5-6 hits per 10. Once you hit 400 it really changes, there is actually some spin drift from what I notice. But if you have the glass and the form it can be done. I watched longstud have a pretty good run at 400 but only managed a few hits myself, running around 20% even when I found the right come ups
 
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