Where did all the Milsurps go ???
- Thread starter 1rstEncountr
- Start date
Here are my thoughts/observations.
Some of the points I make will upset some of you, but TFB.
A little while ago, I ran an informal survey of the ages of people interested in milsurp. Previously, I would have said "collectors" but i don't view most in the milsurp game as collectors, but rather as "trenders". They chase what is fashionable with no real long term interest in building a proper collection, that takes years to assemble. At first I was happy, the age spectrum was right across the board, from old codgers, to 20 somethings collecting. Now I realize that many are not collectors.
The USA has a deep base of serious collectors, Canada not so much, and yes, I factored in the population differences. Even on this board, there are very few true collectors, they are just temporary floaters who are not serious or are cluless (just like a few posters in this thread).
I say that for a number of reasons, and will spell out a couple. I have had a saying for awhile: Many will pay $400 for a piece of garbage that is worth $300, but won't pay $500 for a prime example for their collection that is worth $600-$900. If you don't believe me, watch the EE for a a few weeks.
Case in point, i tried to sell a very short barrelled, mint bore, low serial #, overall great condition, 8mm, 50's era very short Mauser carbine, Belgian made, on this board. A rifle where I finally understood the term "the action is as smooth as butter". I couldn't move it even though the price was below the many clapped out, crappy condition RC Mausers that carry a lot less "collectability".
Quite frankly, things have changed in the last year or so. There was a time you could a bag of shiitte on the board and say a German soldier crapped in it and you would be able to get a good buck for it (remember the guys trying to sell milsurps claiming "that's not run, that's blood form the dead soldier and i want more money for it because of that!"? People complained about gun shows and would go or buy form there. Now I do a good chunk of my selling at shows and less so on this board, and i have heard the same from others.
I have many more examples from my group of collectors.
Now you have more than one thread where people complain about prices of milsurps, however the torch has been passed from the "Prices are too high. Back in my day you could go to the hardware store and buy Enfields out of a barrel for 25 bucks" to the " well 3 years ago I could have bought that ### rifle for $250 and now its triple, you (seller) are stupid if you think I am going to pay that price".
Its akin to the threads form a decade ago, when a whole bunch of "smart" people were holding out from buying a house, because prices were too high and they would wait until the market crashed. You know why those threads are gone? Because house prices didn't drop, and in fact sky rocketed and now it would just make them look beyond stupid to bring up that subject. I remember the vicious and personal attacks on people (myself included) that advocated to buy housing at that moment and how retarded we were and didn't know how to function in life etc etc. Who's laughing now and who are the idiots?
Some of the points I make will upset some of you, but TFB.
A little while ago, I ran an informal survey of the ages of people interested in milsurp. Previously, I would have said "collectors" but i don't view most in the milsurp game as collectors, but rather as "trenders". They chase what is fashionable with no real long term interest in building a proper collection, that takes years to assemble. At first I was happy, the age spectrum was right across the board, from old codgers, to 20 somethings collecting. Now I realize that many are not collectors.
The USA has a deep base of serious collectors, Canada not so much, and yes, I factored in the population differences. Even on this board, there are very few true collectors, they are just temporary floaters who are not serious or are cluless (just like a few posters in this thread).
I say that for a number of reasons, and will spell out a couple. I have had a saying for awhile: Many will pay $400 for a piece of garbage that is worth $300, but won't pay $500 for a prime example for their collection that is worth $600-$900. If you don't believe me, watch the EE for a a few weeks.
Case in point, i tried to sell a very short barrelled, mint bore, low serial #, overall great condition, 8mm, 50's era very short Mauser carbine, Belgian made, on this board. A rifle where I finally understood the term "the action is as smooth as butter". I couldn't move it even though the price was below the many clapped out, crappy condition RC Mausers that carry a lot less "collectability".
Quite frankly, things have changed in the last year or so. There was a time you could a bag of shiitte on the board and say a German soldier crapped in it and you would be able to get a good buck for it (remember the guys trying to sell milsurps claiming "that's not run, that's blood form the dead soldier and i want more money for it because of that!"? People complained about gun shows and would go or buy form there. Now I do a good chunk of my selling at shows and less so on this board, and i have heard the same from others.
I have many more examples from my group of collectors.
Now you have more than one thread where people complain about prices of milsurps, however the torch has been passed from the "Prices are too high. Back in my day you could go to the hardware store and buy Enfields out of a barrel for 25 bucks" to the " well 3 years ago I could have bought that ### rifle for $250 and now its triple, you (seller) are stupid if you think I am going to pay that price".
Its akin to the threads form a decade ago, when a whole bunch of "smart" people were holding out from buying a house, because prices were too high and they would wait until the market crashed. You know why those threads are gone? Because house prices didn't drop, and in fact sky rocketed and now it would just make them look beyond stupid to bring up that subject. I remember the vicious and personal attacks on people (myself included) that advocated to buy housing at that moment and how retarded we were and didn't know how to function in life etc etc. Who's laughing now and who are the idiots?
Nope, sold it at the last gunshow, along with 3 other rifles. To add, that particular rifle sold at the very beginning of the show, to a collector who knew what it was and what the value was, not some whiney ####.
Not bitter, just sick of hearing about all the #####ing, and those individuals don't realize they are the problem.
...and if that is all you got out of my post, then it seems you are part of the problem that I stated.
Edited to add: truth hurts doesn't it?
Not bitter, just sick of hearing about all the #####ing, and those individuals don't realize they are the problem.
...and if that is all you got out of my post, then it seems you are part of the problem that I stated.
Edited to add: truth hurts doesn't it?
I think you are the bigger problem in collecting. All these people walking around thinking they are superior because they own some rare rifle....
What makes you think I don’t collect because I enjoy the history? Just because someone doesn’t have $3000 to drop on some rare rifle doesn’t mean they don’t appreciate its value or history.
I may be somewhat new to the game but I’ve always loved WW2 history and have just gotten into WW1, I’ve bought 8 milsurps since getting my PAL less than 2 years ago. None of them are junk, all are numbers matching, some are rare some are common.
I just get sick of the guys thinking they are better than everyone because they bought rare variants cheap 3 decades ago and are all pissy there is less of a market for $3000 prices they want now
Wow! F'ing clues aren't you. Where did $3k come from? Where did i say anyone was superior over some one else. All I stated was that most who say are collectors really aren't. Like is said, my post would offend some. Sorry i made you cry.
You gave no evidence to support your claim of most people who collect aren’t collectors aside from the fact you couldn’t find someone to buy a specific rifle on CGN, so just becuase no one here collected the same rifle you tried to sell everyone here is dumb and not a true collector? Sounds like you are the one crying
That’s the superiority complex I am talking about. No one wanted a Belgian rifle at the time I posted it so you are all dumb becuase clearly my product is superior and the fact no one made an offer makes all of you dumb. So I took my ball and went to a gun show
I posted one example and said and there are many others, Also a number of collectors have said the same thing. I see this all the time. You can too, if you follow what i said and watch the EE for a little while. Also, a number of us see this at the shows. Drop $400 for garbage and not willing to drop $500 for a much better example 2 tables down. You take my classification of "collector" vs "trender' too personally and too negatively. Not saying one is better than the other just saying there aren't as many "collectors" as one would think. I guess many identify as a collector, when in fact they are really not and then complain about the pricing on collector firearms. You want a shooter, buy a shooter, but don't whine like others in this thread, that collectors are asking too much for their items. Seems guys like you are the problem. You believe whatever you want.
As for providing evidence, I said here are my thoughts/observations. I now have to turn this into a reasearch project for you? What you like the charts in bar graph form or pie form?
As for your last sentence, please amend it to "and sold it for asking price to a collector who understood and appreciated it for what it was."
As for providing evidence, I said here are my thoughts/observations. I now have to turn this into a reasearch project for you? What you like the charts in bar graph form or pie form?
As for your last sentence, please amend it to "and sold it for asking price to a collector who understood and appreciated it for what it was."
I agree whining about prices is dumb. I can appreciate why some rifles are out of price range, I’ve accepted I’ll never own some of them. Can I afford them, sure, do I consider spending 2 mortgage payments on a rifle smart, nope.
I collect what I can afford. I agree with you some guys will pay $400 for junk when they could spend $500 on a quality piece and that isn’t smart. But calling people trenders is what gets people’s back up. I’ll probably never be a “collector” by some people’s standard. But I throughly research what I buy and love the history of every piece I own.
I collect what I can afford. I agree with you some guys will pay $400 for junk when they could spend $500 on a quality piece and that isn’t smart. But calling people trenders is what gets people’s back up. I’ll probably never be a “collector” by some people’s standard. But I throughly research what I buy and love the history of every piece I own.
I think people are also missing the point that building a collection takes time and effort and you can't obtain anything worth having at the drop of a hat.
I have built up a good collection of Milsurps but have been at it for 40 years. I attend every gun show that I can and always get there early and have cash in hand. I go to the gun stores regularly, chat to people at the range, look at online ads every day. I buy books and magazines and research diligently. I visit museums and other collectors and network. I buy 2 - 3 rifles per year always looking for good condition, all matching and reasonable pricing. There are still good rifles to be had at decent prices but you have to be prepared to work and you have to be able to act decisively when opportunities arrive.
I get a lot of people by my table at gun shows who do not show up early, do not have cash on hand, have not taken the time to research what they are looking for, are not prepared to pay fair prices and then want to complain about older collectors having all the good stuff and not being willing to sell. Well I worked hard for my collection and want to enjoy it in my retirement while I am still able......
I have built up a good collection of Milsurps but have been at it for 40 years. I attend every gun show that I can and always get there early and have cash in hand. I go to the gun stores regularly, chat to people at the range, look at online ads every day. I buy books and magazines and research diligently. I visit museums and other collectors and network. I buy 2 - 3 rifles per year always looking for good condition, all matching and reasonable pricing. There are still good rifles to be had at decent prices but you have to be prepared to work and you have to be able to act decisively when opportunities arrive.
I get a lot of people by my table at gun shows who do not show up early, do not have cash on hand, have not taken the time to research what they are looking for, are not prepared to pay fair prices and then want to complain about older collectors having all the good stuff and not being willing to sell. Well I worked hard for my collection and want to enjoy it in my retirement while I am still able......
Ok, now that we are both kind of on the same page. What you say below is what i mean. People are willing to over pay or pay close to the asking price of a "nice" and "good" milsurp for a piece of garbage. Hence my term of trender. Its not about the absolute cost of an item, its about the value and i never have understood why people pay for garbage. Hey, there are milsurps that i have wanted to buy years/decades ago, but i won't pay the asking price. Its not that i think they are over-priced or anything, its just i am not willing to pay at that level. I wait until I come across a deal. Sometimes it has taken me 20 years to get a particular rifle. Again case in point, mint Argie Mauser 1909. Had to buy a whole collection (i realize that many can't just drop $3-6K) but I realized the asking price was way below the value of the collection. Sold off the other items in the pile, kept that particular rifle. My net $ in that rifle is negative, i.e I was paid to take it. Had to put funds upfront and spend time selling off the junk and a few nice collectable pieces as well.
As for collecting, well I consider the the SKS as a item that has a stock worse than a 2x4 and metal work that is 3rd rate (here we go again, now someone else will get pissed off) I don't collect SKS's (so why do i have a couple?!), however i do appreciate the guys that have built a collection around these, getting all the different years and makers etc. Its just not for me.
Sorry if i came in a little strong.
As for collecting, well I consider the the SKS as a item that has a stock worse than a 2x4 and metal work that is 3rd rate (here we go again, now someone else will get pissed off) I don't collect SKS's (so why do i have a couple?!), however i do appreciate the guys that have built a collection around these, getting all the different years and makers etc. Its just not for me.
Sorry if i came in a little strong.
Sorry if I did to. I’ve just had people act like if all your rifles aren’t $3000 safe queens you aren’t collecting.
Some of my finer pieces are my cheapest ones to be honest. My two prized guns are a numbers matching Canadian issued Smith and Wesson pre-victory revolver and a 1899 dated carcano 91 TS. Are these two collectible for most people? Probably not, but the revolver has a special place in my heart being Canadian issued, and 1899 dates carcano carbines aren’t super common and I like the idea of a rifle that saw both world wars. Once for the good guys and once for the not so good guys.
Some of my finer pieces are my cheapest ones to be honest. My two prized guns are a numbers matching Canadian issued Smith and Wesson pre-victory revolver and a 1899 dated carcano 91 TS. Are these two collectible for most people? Probably not, but the revolver has a special place in my heart being Canadian issued, and 1899 dates carcano carbines aren’t super common and I like the idea of a rifle that saw both world wars. Once for the good guys and once for the not so good guys.
Good thread, if we can keep it civil.
Some people's glass are half full, some are half empty.
But it's good to see we're all true Canadians...I'm sorry too.
It would be nice to own a K98 that didn't have to be labeled rc at the end. Or to able to afford (at today's prices) 20-30 different Mausers, from around the world, if that's what you want in your collection. Everyone has different taste.
But it seems what I want and what I can afford are drifting apart more each day.
Buying a "LOT" of rifles at at a action only to keep the one you want is a great idea...if one can afford it.
Haven't had much luck with on line auctions.
Some people's glass are half full, some are half empty.
But it's good to see we're all true Canadians...I'm sorry too.
It would be nice to own a K98 that didn't have to be labeled rc at the end. Or to able to afford (at today's prices) 20-30 different Mausers, from around the world, if that's what you want in your collection. Everyone has different taste.
But it seems what I want and what I can afford are drifting apart more each day.
Buying a "LOT" of rifles at at a action only to keep the one you want is a great idea...if one can afford it.
Haven't had much luck with on line auctions.
I had an interest in military surplus rifles ever since I learned to read in 1959 and saw $9.99 Lee Enfields in the Eaton's catalogue. I thought "I want one of those."
Then i started to get SIR catalogues with all kinds of cool old guns. Bought a Mosin and a Swede.
I had a brief fling with more Mosins for a while and could have got into other species but in the end I realized I am just not a acquisitor. Got rid of the last one last year.
I was visiting a record collector pall last year. Guy has over 40,000 singles and a houseful of vintage things like juke boxes and Coke posters.
As a musician I enjoy listening to his vast collection of obscure rockabilly records, but when he asked me if I ever had any interest in collecting I had to say "Nope."
Then i started to get SIR catalogues with all kinds of cool old guns. Bought a Mosin and a Swede.
I had a brief fling with more Mosins for a while and could have got into other species but in the end I realized I am just not a acquisitor. Got rid of the last one last year.
I was visiting a record collector pall last year. Guy has over 40,000 singles and a houseful of vintage things like juke boxes and Coke posters.
As a musician I enjoy listening to his vast collection of obscure rockabilly records, but when he asked me if I ever had any interest in collecting I had to say "Nope."
Coyote Ugly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Hoard is a pretty negative term. I collect in the long term.
I have responded several times to WTB ads here on GUNNUTZ but have never made a sale even when having what the person asks for in good shape at reasonable market prices. The most common reply I get is nothing at all. Its the same at gunshows. I usually take 2-3 decent rifles in good shape at market prices and get lots of looky loos. "Thats in good shape" "do you take visa" "the wife won't let me" and my favourite of all "I was buying those for $49 a few years ago" to which my reply is "can I borrow your time machine next time you are not using it?"
I have responded several times to WTB ads here on GUNNUTZ but have never made a sale even when having what the person asks for in good shape at reasonable market prices. The most common reply I get is nothing at all. Its the same at gunshows. I usually take 2-3 decent rifles in good shape at market prices and get lots of looky loos. "Thats in good shape" "do you take visa" "the wife won't let me" and my favourite of all "I was buying those for $49 a few years ago" to which my reply is "can I borrow your time machine next time you are not using it?"
^^the WTB ads are for guys looking for something at around 1/2 the price of what it should sell for. They are fishing for the sucker. I gave up responding to these ads.
I have seen WTB ads right above a WTS ad for exactly the same thing and the WTS price was reasonable...and yet it didn't sell!
I have seen WTB ads right above a WTS ad for exactly the same thing and the WTS price was reasonable...and yet it didn't sell!
Sad....really
For the few times I needed help and went on the EE WTB ads.
Members were outstanding, very helpful and very, very friendly.
It's how you meet great members that are full of knowledge that want to share.
By the way...I love to fish too.
For the few times I needed help and went on the EE WTB ads.
Members were outstanding, very helpful and very, very friendly.
It's how you meet great members that are full of knowledge that want to share.
By the way...I love to fish too.
Last edited:
