Best HD option in .223?

Still alive said:
So you agree that using sights are better than not? And it all depends on the proficiency of the shooter?

Which means that you agree that less proficient shooters may just point and shoot and hope for the best? Is this not dangerous? Why are you advocating this technique then?
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Let’s try laying out scenarios at different ranges, if you have a tape measure try visualizing this.

1) Almost contact shot 3 ft, width of a door
I would guarantee that even a new shooter will get rounds on target without aim. It would also be silly to aim with sights. I guarantee you can’t miss even firing from hip.

2) 6 ft out, width of 2 doors
as long as you have a good grip, I think you will not benefit from aiming with sights either. Center mass shot, easy. Unrealistic to aim too.

3) 3 meters, width of 3.5 doors
now this is where a sloppy grip can cause you to miss, but if your hold is consistent, I don’t see why an average shooter can miss.

4) 5 meters: To a decent shooter, with a consistent grip it’s really isn’t that difficult to do to have rounds on target.

So, Still Alive, up to which number above would you start disagreeing with me? Yes sights are better if situation allows, but I suspect it wouldn’t be that straight forward, close up within steps and arms reach.


Another thing to think about is this, to train for a faster paced handgun shooting, you are basically training for getting back on target after each recoil. If you can repeatedly and consistently get strings of 3, 4, 5 shots on target in a hurry, you have developed the muscle memory to automatically return the gun back to the correct place. It becomes natural and you put less and less emphasize on your sights. You also start knowing that at certain distances, it slows you down so much that it’s a diminishing return, much like scenarios 1-2 for even a novice shooter.
 
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The only distance you listed, PK, above I won’t be using sights is the 3’ range. It will be retention shooting at this point.

Any other distance, if I can get a sight picture, I will try. For a 6’ distance and up, it might start from retention and increasing distance from the target ( getting off the X) and getting the flash sight picture.

You have too many caveats in your post... “ as long as you have a good grip, if your hold is consistent, to a decent shooter with a consistent grip...”, you are not talking about a novice here, but someone who knows what a proper grip is and can shoot. This person will use his/her sights.

As to consistently getting 3-5 shots fast on target without sights, there is no way even a top shooter will try this without at least aiming with their sights on the first round. Then proper grip, a flash sight picture and recoil control take over after that. But this takes a lot of skill and training.

You are using the argument for your technique being used by decent shooters with muscle memory and a flash sight picture and projecting it to normal shooters with minimal experience and saying point shooting without sights is useful. I agree a new shooter may get lucky in an encounter but it is still not the proper way to train.
 
I’ve been trying to find an anecdote by Jeff Cooper about your exact case but the story is so old that I can’t seem to locate it on the net.

He mentioned a S. American student who took training at Gunsite. The fellow was some kind of diplomat in a country where murders were common. The man saw out his window, a car that stopped and 2 men came out with shotguns. The diplomat was ready and waited for them at his front door. When the door bell rang, he opened the door and unleashed 2 mags worth of 9mm from his BHP. When the smoke cleared, the car was gone and the guy hit nothing. Cooper said he couldn’t say if this was a success story or not as the guy hit nothing but, at least, he survived.

So a mag dump at doorway distance resulted in no hits from a prepared and trained person in daylight.
 
Still alive said:
I’ve been trying to find an anecdote by Jeff Cooper about your exact case but the story is so old that I can’t seem to locate it on the net.

He mentioned a S. American student who took training at Gunsite. The fellow was some kind of diplomat in a country where murders were common. The man saw out his window, a car that stopped and 2 men came out with shotguns. The diplomat was ready and waited for them at his front door. When the door bell rang, he opened the door and unleashed 2 mags worth of 9mm from his BHP. When the smoke cleared, the car was gone and the guy hit nothing. Cooper said he couldn’t say if this was a success story or not as the guy hit nothing but, at least, he survived.

So a mag dump at doorway distance resulted in no hits from a prepared and trained person in daylight.
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Interesting. I have not been in any dangerous situation thankfully.

But what I'd like to hear experience from police officers, military, home intrusion survivors etc when your life in put on the line. I'd specifically want to know what their mind was prioritizing when pulling the trigger.

Other than that, all we can do is speculate.
 
This is hilarious.

He says everything is both ways. He uses his sights but he doesn't use them. Gun handling is muscle memory, muscle memory aligns your sights, but muscle memory cant align your sights because it not muscle memory. Sights increase accuracy but using them will not increase accuracy

Not to mention all the false equivalencies range shooting = training, range shooting on a static range at a static well lit target = gun fighting in non permissive environment. using your sights = take ten minutes to make a deliberate 100m shot

Add to that he doesn't know what basic terms are, as well as what basic shooting info and techniques are. Then there is the BS about all the target is covered and all you can see is the head so you head hunt or what ever BS term you made up. Also its impossible to use your sights on a moving target.

You do realize that if your "point shooting" is off by literally 1 degree at 5m you are missing center of mass right? Its 6-7 inches at 5m

Shawn
 
PinaKaleada said:
Interesting. I have not been in any dangerous situation thankfully.

But what I'd like to hear experience from police officers, military, home intrusion survivors etc when your life in put on the line. I'd specifically want to know what their mind was prioritizing when pulling the trigger.

Other than that, all we can do is speculate.
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You are I did 20 years in the infantry, then cash in transit. I have literally done gun play in real life. I saw my front sight/dot every time, as does every one who actually trains

Shawn
 
PinaKaleada said:
Wow you should've said so earlier.

Can you tell us what is the closest call you've encountered?
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The closest I guess was 8 feet I guess during a road rage incident. I assume you are talking distance wise, he choose that is was no longer that important after staring down the barrel of multiple pistols and some rifles

Shawn
 
shawn said:
The closest I guess was 8 feet I guess during a road rage incident. I assume you are talking distance wise, he choose that is was no longer that important after staring down the barrel of multiple pistols and some rifles

Shawn
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I don't imagine its infantry work to deal with road rage is it? Multiple pistols and some rifles you say..... Can you elaborate?
 
PinaKaleada said:
...all we can do is speculate.
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No, all YOU can do is speculate. Others with experience and training are trying (unsuccessfully) to explain to you why you’re wrong. But you ignorantly or unwillingly disregard what’s being said.


PinaKaleada said:
I'd specifically want to know what their mind was prioritizing when pulling the trigger.
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There have been a lot of studies, investigations, and interviews regarding pre and post shooting incidents. But I’m not going to share it on a civilian oriented site with some anonymous person.
 
wicked_police said:
There have been a lot of studies, investigations, and interviews regarding pre and post shooting incidents. But I’m not going to share it on a civilian oriented site with some anonymous person.
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Well if you have seen it, you can say something like "it was found that 80% use their sights at X distances" or "50% of people aim and miss" that level of detail without revealing anonymous persons right? So could you tell us more about these studies, investigations and interviews?
 
PinaKaleada said:
I don't imagine its infantry work to deal with road rage is it? Multiple pistols and some rifles you say..... Can you elaborate?
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What are infantry supposed to do when confronted on the road? Says not my job and continue to sit there sipping timmies?

Now we are devolving from you telling us whats what in a gunfight to what infantry do or do not do?

Nearly everyone that has responded to you has been police or military and yet it is not good enough.

Shawn
 
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PinaKaleada said:
Well if you have seen it, you can say something like "it was found that 80% use their sights at X distances" or "50% of people aim and miss" that level of detail without revealing anonymous persons right? So could you tell us more about these studies, investigations and interviews?
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Your question was “ what their mind was prioritizing when they pulled the trigger “. It’s definitely not deciding whether to point shoot instinctively or use their sights. That’s the muscle memory from training and that’s with sights. And remember what I said about how each bullet has a lawyer attached to it? You better believe LE are trying their best to hit what they are aiming at and it ain’t point shooting.
 
shawn said:
What are infantry supposed to do when confronted on the road? Says not my jobs and continue to sit there sipping timmies?

Now we are devolving from you telling us whats what in a gunfight to what infantry do or do not do?

Nearly everyone that has responded to you has been police or military and yet it is not good enough.

Shawn
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Look man. The situation you brought up, where there's multiple of you with multiple pistols and rifles, probably in body armour, knowing that the road rage guy likely doesn't have anything on him, on the road, with open spaces and clear view. And most of you already have time to get sights on the guy looking out for any sudden moves.

I'm not discounting your experience in any way, I'm questioning if it translates the same in a HD situation, where there's 1 of you, and who knows how many of them, and a ton more stress.

I'm not convinced it's the same.
 
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